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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
    Look, I'm just into safety first. That's all. Both feet planted and zero chance of a error. Not playing around with a lethal weapon. That's my sole objection.

    Safety is the primary concern.
    If you are an airman at the range knowing you'll never actually need any real shooting skill, sure.

    But if you are training for something other than a shiny plastic trinket for your dress blues, you had been be shooting from uncomfortable positions and in unexpected scenarios.

    The more risk in training, the greater safety in a real incident, because otherwise when it goes live you will revert to the bad habits you picked up on a 'safe' range.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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    • #17
      Speaking of Bob...may he RIP




      Last edited by Urban hermit; 20 Jan 18, 10:35.
      Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
      Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
        Speaking of Bob...may he RIP




        Yep
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          Look, I'm just into safety first. That's all. Both feet planted and zero chance of a error. Not playing around with a lethal weapon. That's my sole objection.

          Safety is the primary concern.
          Safety is always the primary concern.

          Why do you think that because she wasn't following NRA course specified procedures on an NRA certifiable range that she was being unsafe? Two weeks ago I broke the hell out of every NRA rule they've come up with and wasn't unsafe. Two days ago I did it as well, heck there I actually broke ALL but one of the cardinal safety rules (kept finger straight and off the trigger though). In 3 days I'll do it all over again.

          As a professional, I don't see her being unsafe in her actions. She's not at risk of shooting anyone else, or shooting herself.

          Not a slam against the NRA safety courses, or safety-nazis. Just that all but one of the latter I've ever met was also one of the hardline adherents to the former. I've had guys scream at me about dropping the mag and clearing the weapon before I put it into a level three retention holster when I'm on a civilian range. Then proceed to come up to me and preach about the number of safety classes they've taken and how they're a range safety so and so. Of course they're so safety conscious that they're actually scared of the weapon, rather than respectful, and they'll flag the hell out of you once they've cleared it fifteen times and otherwise suck at manipulating the weapon.

          She's a professional. Is she fallible? Absolutely. Is she less likely to fail than someone who only gets a little range time? Yep. Ultimately there are 4 cardinal safety rules, and only two of them are absolutes for professionals (Treat Every Weapon as Loaded, Keep finger straight and off trigger until you intend to fire), the other two being judiciously broken as necessary. All the extras, like ensuring you always have a balanced stance, a proper grip, and so on, those are rules to make something inherently unsafe to the amateur to be something relatively safer.

          Don't think about it just like a weapon. Think about it like a highly dangerous high performance piece of machinery (which it is). Like say a car. And if you had to strap your wife into a High Performance Automobile (like say a Formula 1 car), would you rather it be with a guy who's taken 5 driver safety courses and knows all the rules of the road perfectly? Or Lewis Hamilton?

          Safety is a relative thing when dealing with high performance equipment that interfaces with humans. There is always a human element, therefore there is always something that you can't "lockout, tagout, or procedure manual" into safety. And that means that there are procedure manuals for the uninitiated to get their feet wet without killing themselves....and then there are safe people who know how to be safe.
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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          • #20
            The only real safety in the handling of firearms is the handler themself.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • #21
              How fast is fast?

              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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              • #22
                A little back ground on the subject of the OP

                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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