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Notre Dame students call for removal of Columbus Confederate monument...

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  • slick_miester
    replied
    ^ That's so old fashioned. Do you realize how "square" you sound?

    In a lot of way you're right. All things being equal, we're usually our own best victims. That applies as much to countries and societies as it does to individuals.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    This is a strange discussion

    Calling people bigots is not an argument. Suggesting that the only people in history to end slavery (white males) are inherently "toxic" is an argument against labeling everyone you disagree with as a bigot.

    There are many explanations other than the history of slavery to explain the lack of relative success of the descendants of slaves. While racism may be an on going impediment to the success of minorities it does not explain why some minorities do better than others. Whatever the lingering effects of slavery may be the effects of more recent societal influences on suppressing the descendants of former slaves must be having a more direct effect. There are many successful descendents of slaves that give us a clue as to why other's are failing.

    The formula for success in the U.S. is fairly simple. Have a two parent family, get an education, have a strong work ethic, think long term by avoiding immediate gratification, avoid excessive corporal and psychological discipline of children, have sexual morality, avoid drugs including alcohol, ignore bigotry by relentless pursuit of your goals, and have faith in yourself.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Made by another ignoramus who doesn't know or read history, and who have never been inside of an Italian prison or dungeon from the period, and who apparently also never learned about the Italian treatment of the Ethiopians during WWII.

    Italy is the off-spring in every way of Rome, those kind, loving, compassionate people who brought you wide spread slavery and the gladiatorial games, along with crucifixion and torture, genocide and mass murder.

    And the US isn't among a long line of powers that's sought to emulate Rome?



    Roman symbols, Roman language: they're both represented throughout our political culture. How, pray tell, have you not noticed? With the exception of the fasces, they're in your pocket daily.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is a history forum, BM - learn some, for crying out loud.
    Have you considered taking your own advice?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    And there you have it folks, a classic example of a bigoted statement.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Beccaria
    Made by another ignoramus who doesn't know or read history, and who have never been inside of an Italian prison or dungeon from the period, and who apparently also never learned about the Italian treatment of the Ethiopians during WWII.

    Italy is the off-spring in every way of Rome, those kind, loving, compassionate people who brought you wide spread slavery and the gladiatorial games, along with crucifixion and torture, genocide and mass murder.

    This is a history forum, BM - learn some, for crying out loud.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bass_Man86
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...
    And there you have it folks, a classic example of a bigoted statement.

    Cesare Bonesana-Beccaria, Marquis of Gualdrasco and Villareggio; 15 March 1738 – 28 November 1794) was an Italian criminologist, jurist, philosopher, and politician, who is widely considered as the most talented jurist and one of the greatest thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment. He is well remembered for his treatise On Crimes and Punishments (1764), which condemned torture and the death penalty, and was a founding work in the field of penology and the Classical School of criminology. Beccaria is considered the father of modern criminal law and the father of criminal justice. According to John Bessler, Beccaria's works had a profound influence on the Founding Fathers of the United States.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Beccaria

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    See my post on the next logical step in revisionist history - slavery never happened at all.

    It's logical, and it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.
    Let's not forget Francis Hutcheson, Adam Smith, and David Hume -- who posited that law should be accessible and comprehensible to all citizens, as well as his uncle, who articulated the "Is-Ought Problem." I've found Smith's and the Humes' works not only accessible, but very practical, applicable to everyday situations, while the Philosophes came across as rather ethereal and abstract, and far too lofty for mere plebs.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...
    I'll just get my coat now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.
    "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bass_Man86
    replied
    Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
    Good post, just a couple of tidbits here:

    1) not only were Italians distrusted by the US' Protestant majority, they were also distrusted by the Roman Catholic immigrants who'd preceded them -- the Irish. The Irish viewed the Italians as completely alien, as competitors for the low-end jobs that had long been an Irish domain, as interlopers who hadn't "earned their spurs" like the Irish had in the New World, and since Rome had dictated that New York and Boston were Irish territory (all Roman Catholic prelates in NY, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are always of Irish-American descent, never Italian) the Irish view of Catholicism predominated. Hence there was much tension between the Irish-dominated East Coast archdioceses and the newly-arrived Italian parishioners. Here's a bit from the Times:



    2) did not the Enlightenment start not in France, but in England and Scotland -- at least the stuff that was truly useful, and ultimately influenced views in the New World?
    Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

    http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day
    Doesn't matter, since Columbus never discovered the region known as United States of America at all. Didn't even get that close.

    And the true credit probably goes to the Vikings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
    It seems like the "Fighting Irish" have gone down for the count. The ghosts of Knute Rockne and George Gipp have rolled over in their graves. The students of today's Notre Dame have no sense of history. It's recorded (somewhere) that the first sailor in Columbus' fleet to step ashore was an Irishman. Shame on you, you Jesuits. Take a little pedantic control of your charges.
    I seriously doubt you could find many Irish at Notre Dame these days.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

    http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day
    Good post, just a couple of tidbits here:

    1) not only were Italians distrusted by the US' Protestant majority, they were also distrusted by the Roman Catholic immigrants who'd preceded them -- the Irish. The Irish viewed the Italians as completely alien, as competitors for the low-end jobs that had long been an Irish domain, as interlopers who hadn't "earned their spurs" like the Irish had in the New World, and since Rome had dictated that New York and Boston were Irish territory (all Roman Catholic prelates in NY, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are always of Irish-American descent, never Italian) the Irish view of Catholicism predominated. Hence there was much tension between the Irish-dominated East Coast archdioceses and the newly-arrived Italian parishioners. Here's a bit from the Times:

    Professor Moses recalls the discrimination first suffered by the Irish (remember those “No Irish Need Apply” proscriptions) and how they later clawed their way up to become gatekeepers to successive generations of Italian newcomers.

    Conflicts and marriages of convenience abounded, like the Lower Manhattan alliance between the Tammany boss Big Tim Sullivan and the gang leader Paul Kelly (born Franco Antonio Paolo Vaccarelli).

    Crime and politics were more accessible to Italians than the local Irish-dominated Catholic Church was. After all, Fiorello H. La Guardia was finally elected mayor, but only after losing a race during which The New York Times cautioned that he needed to rein in his “Latin temperament”; it was not until 1968, when Francis J. Mugavero was appointed a bishop, that an Italian-American headed a diocese in New York State.

    "The Clash of New York’s Irish and Italians, and the City’s First Black Firefighter," by Sam Roberts, The New York Times, 7 Aug 2015
    2) did not the Enlightenment start not in France, but in England and Scotland -- at least the stuff that was truly useful, and ultimately influenced views in the New World?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bass_Man86
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    The Columbus statute/mural phenomenon is interesting. Comparing Catholic Spain's colonies to the English colonies the Spanish colonies have done relatively poorly in terms of establishing thriving liberal democracies. Spain itself until relatively recently has lagged behind the rest of Europe in both economic and social development. In many ways the feudal system still influences many former Spanish colonies delaying social development.

    The Catholics it seems needed a hero in the new world to offset the somewhat deserved disdain of their protestant neighbors. They picked Columbus as that hero.

    The U.S. is the offspring of English culture not only in language but in terms of social development. Centuries of conflict not only with Catholic Spain and France but internal religious conflict with the less devolved parts of Britain and Ireland rightfully left the British suspicious of Catholics. This is especially true because politics and religion were inseparable in Europe. The English colonies had their own reasons to be suspicious of Catholics but that is a story for another day.

    As recently as the JFK presidential campaign Catholics have been under suspicion in the U.S. . The homage paid to Columbus by Catholic Americans can be seen in that light as either a political statement or an attempt to maintain a proud independent identity. In a subtle way the statues and murals of Columbus are a symbol of political dissent in the broad cultural sense. While the Irish and Italian Americans have largely overcome the social barriers they faced for generations their monuments are symbolic of class struggle with the dominate culture.

    While Italians and Irish were never as oppressed as other minorities the protesters should see that at the time the murals were erected they were symbolic of the struggle for ethnic equality.
    Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

    http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Their school, their call.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Two of Ed's sons are on the McNeese State team. One plays WR and the other is a Quarterback. The Orgerons have come out to watch the boys play this year.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:

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