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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.
    Let's not forget Francis Hutcheson, Adam Smith, and David Hume -- who posited that law should be accessible and comprehensible to all citizens, as well as his uncle, who articulated the "Is-Ought Problem." I've found Smith's and the Humes' works not only accessible, but very practical, applicable to everyday situations, while the Philosophes came across as rather ethereal and abstract, and far too lofty for mere plebs.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...
    I'll just get my coat now.
    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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    • #32
      See my post on the next logical step in revisionist history - slavery never happened at all.

      It's logical, and it works.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...
        And there you have it folks, a classic example of a bigoted statement.

        Cesare Bonesana-Beccaria, Marquis of Gualdrasco and Villareggio; 15 March 1738 – 28 November 1794) was an Italian criminologist, jurist, philosopher, and politician, who is widely considered as the most talented jurist and one of the greatest thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment. He is well remembered for his treatise On Crimes and Punishments (1764), which condemned torture and the death penalty, and was a founding work in the field of penology and the Classical School of criminology. Beccaria is considered the father of modern criminal law and the father of criminal justice. According to John Bessler, Beccaria's works had a profound influence on the Founding Fathers of the United States.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Beccaria
        Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

        Initiated Chief Petty Officer
        Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
          And there you have it folks, a classic example of a bigoted statement.



          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Beccaria
          Made by another ignoramus who doesn't know or read history, and who have never been inside of an Italian prison or dungeon from the period, and who apparently also never learned about the Italian treatment of the Ethiopians during WWII.

          Italy is the off-spring in every way of Rome, those kind, loving, compassionate people who brought you wide spread slavery and the gladiatorial games, along with crucifixion and torture, genocide and mass murder.

          This is a history forum, BM - learn some, for crying out loud.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Made by another ignoramus who doesn't know or read history, and who have never been inside of an Italian prison or dungeon from the period, and who apparently also never learned about the Italian treatment of the Ethiopians during WWII.

            Italy is the off-spring in every way of Rome, those kind, loving, compassionate people who brought you wide spread slavery and the gladiatorial games, along with crucifixion and torture, genocide and mass murder.

            And the US isn't among a long line of powers that's sought to emulate Rome?



            Roman symbols, Roman language: they're both represented throughout our political culture. How, pray tell, have you not noticed? With the exception of the fasces, they're in your pocket daily.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            This is a history forum, BM - learn some, for crying out loud.
            Have you considered taking your own advice?
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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            • #36
              This is a strange discussion

              Calling people bigots is not an argument. Suggesting that the only people in history to end slavery (white males) are inherently "toxic" is an argument against labeling everyone you disagree with as a bigot.

              There are many explanations other than the history of slavery to explain the lack of relative success of the descendants of slaves. While racism may be an on going impediment to the success of minorities it does not explain why some minorities do better than others. Whatever the lingering effects of slavery may be the effects of more recent societal influences on suppressing the descendants of former slaves must be having a more direct effect. There are many successful descendents of slaves that give us a clue as to why other's are failing.

              The formula for success in the U.S. is fairly simple. Have a two parent family, get an education, have a strong work ethic, think long term by avoiding immediate gratification, avoid excessive corporal and psychological discipline of children, have sexual morality, avoid drugs including alcohol, ignore bigotry by relentless pursuit of your goals, and have faith in yourself.
              We hunt the hunters

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              • #37
                ^ That's so old fashioned. Do you realize how "square" you sound?

                In a lot of way you're right. All things being equal, we're usually our own best victims. That applies as much to countries and societies as it does to individuals.
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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