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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
    Argh!!!! And these kids are enrolled in one of the country's finest universities!
    It seems like the "Fighting Irish" have gone down for the count. The ghosts of Knute Rockne and George Gipp have rolled over in their graves. The students of today's Notre Dame have no sense of history. It's recorded (somewhere) that the first sailor in Columbus' fleet to step ashore was an Irishman. Shame on you, you Jesuits. Take a little pedantic control of your charges.
    ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
    IN MARE IN COELO

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    • #17
      The Columbus statute/mural phenomenon is interesting. Comparing Catholic Spain's colonies to the English colonies the Spanish colonies have done relatively poorly in terms of establishing thriving liberal democracies. Spain itself until relatively recently has lagged behind the rest of Europe in both economic and social development. In many ways the feudal system still influences many former Spanish colonies delaying social development.

      The Catholics it seems needed a hero in the new world to offset the somewhat deserved disdain of their protestant neighbors. They picked Columbus as that hero.

      The U.S. is the offspring of English culture not only in language but in terms of social development. Centuries of conflict not only with Catholic Spain and France but internal religious conflict with the less devolved parts of Britain and Ireland rightfully left the British suspicious of Catholics. This is especially true because politics and religion were inseparable in Europe. The English colonies had their own reasons to be suspicious of Catholics but that is a story for another day.

      As recently as the JFK presidential campaign Catholics have been under suspicion in the U.S. . The homage paid to Columbus by Catholic Americans can be seen in that light as either a political statement or an attempt to maintain a proud independent identity. In a subtle way the statues and murals of Columbus are a symbol of political dissent in the broad cultural sense. While the Irish and Italian Americans have largely overcome the social barriers they faced for generations their monuments are symbolic of class struggle with the dominate culture.

      While Italians and Irish were never as oppressed as other minorities the protesters should see that at the time the murals were erected they were symbolic of the struggle for ethnic equality.
      We hunt the hunters

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      • #18
        I can't believe LSU lost to those fools.
        “I do not wish to have the slave emancipated because I love him, but because I hate his master."
        --Salmon P. Chase

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        • #19
          This was a rebuilding year at LSU. Look at the number of LSU players that went into the NFL Draft. Also they lost some people to transfer. My team, McNeese State, got a fifth year Senior that was concerned he would not get much playing time in 2017. He started here when he was healthy. We also got LSU's backup Kicker. He only missed two field goals this year.

          Keep in mind that LSU gets athletes through the TOPS Program in Louisiana. In Tops an athlete only counts one third of a scholarship until his Senior year when the school as to pay him more. The LSU Baseball Team really benefited from TOPS in its Baseball Glory Years.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
            This was a rebuilding year at LSU. Look at the number of LSU players that went into the NFL Draft. Also they lost some people to transfer. My team, McNeese State, got a fifth year Senior that was concerned he would not get much playing time in 2017. He started here when he was healthy. We also got LSU's backup Kicker. He only missed two field goals this year.

            Keep in mind that LSU gets athletes through the TOPS Program in Louisiana. In Tops an athlete only counts one third of a scholarship until his Senior year when the school as to pay him more. The LSU Baseball Team really benefited from TOPS in its Baseball Glory Years.

            Pruitt
            Still shouldn't have lost to Notre Lame.
            “I do not wish to have the slave emancipated because I love him, but because I hate his master."
            --Salmon P. Chase

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            • #21
              Just wait, ...

              ... once the murals are gone these same freek'in students will demand that the "Knights of Columbus" be disbanded and declare that "Notre Dame" is "demeaning to women" and must be changed to "Our All Gender Inclusive, Learning Community"!



              Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
              Notre Dame Students Push for Removal of Columbus Mural, Call it ‘Version of Confederate Monument’

              by TOM CICCOTTA 9 Jan 2018

              Students at the University of Notre Dame are calling for the removal of a mural of Christopher Columbus that has been attached to the university’s main building since 1884.

              Members of the Notre Dame community are calling for the removal of an old mural featured in the university’s main building that depicts Christopher Columbus’ journey to the Americas in 1492. There are actually 12 murals in total hung in the main building that depict his journey and arrival to the Americas.

              [...]

              “In this era of political divisiveness and a renewed rise of dangerous nationalism, it is time for Notre Dame to remove its own version of a Confederate monument. It is time for the murals to go,” it continues.

              [...]

              http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/0...rate-monument/

              "I am Groot"
              - Groot

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              • #22
                I think ...

                Originally posted by Savez View Post
                Still shouldn't have lost to Notre Lame.
                ... Ed Orgeron will fail LSU, just like he did Ole Miss.
                "I am Groot"
                - Groot

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                • #23
                  Two of Ed's sons are on the McNeese State team. One plays WR and the other is a Quarterback. The Orgerons have come out to watch the boys play this year.

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Their school, their call.
                    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                      The Columbus statute/mural phenomenon is interesting. Comparing Catholic Spain's colonies to the English colonies the Spanish colonies have done relatively poorly in terms of establishing thriving liberal democracies. Spain itself until relatively recently has lagged behind the rest of Europe in both economic and social development. In many ways the feudal system still influences many former Spanish colonies delaying social development.

                      The Catholics it seems needed a hero in the new world to offset the somewhat deserved disdain of their protestant neighbors. They picked Columbus as that hero.

                      The U.S. is the offspring of English culture not only in language but in terms of social development. Centuries of conflict not only with Catholic Spain and France but internal religious conflict with the less devolved parts of Britain and Ireland rightfully left the British suspicious of Catholics. This is especially true because politics and religion were inseparable in Europe. The English colonies had their own reasons to be suspicious of Catholics but that is a story for another day.

                      As recently as the JFK presidential campaign Catholics have been under suspicion in the U.S. . The homage paid to Columbus by Catholic Americans can be seen in that light as either a political statement or an attempt to maintain a proud independent identity. In a subtle way the statues and murals of Columbus are a symbol of political dissent in the broad cultural sense. While the Irish and Italian Americans have largely overcome the social barriers they faced for generations their monuments are symbolic of class struggle with the dominate culture.

                      While Italians and Irish were never as oppressed as other minorities the protesters should see that at the time the murals were erected they were symbolic of the struggle for ethnic equality.
                      Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

                      https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

                      http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day
                      Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                      Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                      Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                        Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

                        https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

                        http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day
                        Good post, just a couple of tidbits here:

                        1) not only were Italians distrusted by the US' Protestant majority, they were also distrusted by the Roman Catholic immigrants who'd preceded them -- the Irish. The Irish viewed the Italians as completely alien, as competitors for the low-end jobs that had long been an Irish domain, as interlopers who hadn't "earned their spurs" like the Irish had in the New World, and since Rome had dictated that New York and Boston were Irish territory (all Roman Catholic prelates in NY, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are always of Irish-American descent, never Italian) the Irish view of Catholicism predominated. Hence there was much tension between the Irish-dominated East Coast archdioceses and the newly-arrived Italian parishioners. Here's a bit from the Times:

                        Professor Moses recalls the discrimination first suffered by the Irish (remember those “No Irish Need Apply” proscriptions) and how they later clawed their way up to become gatekeepers to successive generations of Italian newcomers.

                        Conflicts and marriages of convenience abounded, like the Lower Manhattan alliance between the Tammany boss Big Tim Sullivan and the gang leader Paul Kelly (born Franco Antonio Paolo Vaccarelli).

                        Crime and politics were more accessible to Italians than the local Irish-dominated Catholic Church was. After all, Fiorello H. La Guardia was finally elected mayor, but only after losing a race during which The New York Times cautioned that he needed to rein in his “Latin temperament”; it was not until 1968, when Francis J. Mugavero was appointed a bishop, that an Italian-American headed a diocese in New York State.

                        "The Clash of New York’s Irish and Italians, and the City’s First Black Firefighter," by Sam Roberts, The New York Times, 7 Aug 2015
                        2) did not the Enlightenment start not in France, but in England and Scotland -- at least the stuff that was truly useful, and ultimately influenced views in the New World?
                        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
                          It seems like the "Fighting Irish" have gone down for the count. The ghosts of Knute Rockne and George Gipp have rolled over in their graves. The students of today's Notre Dame have no sense of history. It's recorded (somewhere) that the first sailor in Columbus' fleet to step ashore was an Irishman. Shame on you, you Jesuits. Take a little pedantic control of your charges.
                          I seriously doubt you could find many Irish at Notre Dame these days.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                            Good post but not totally accurate. Columbus was embraced by Italian immigrants in an effort to integrate themselves in American society. Very often Italians were both despised and distrusted when they first arrived in the United States and Columbus was in effect a way to lay claim to America and overcome "religious and ethnic discrimination." I will note that the prevalent perception was that Italians were “short of stature, dark in complexion, cruel and shifty." Indeed, newspapers routinely used the word "swarthy" to refer to Italians and focused on the foreignness (and Catholic-ness) of Italians. Italian-Americans in effect used Columbus as way to respond and delegitimize the religious and ethnic discrimination they faced in the United States, and used Christopher Columbus as a lever to be accepted by the mainstream. The disdain was not deserved by Italians or other Catholics for that matter. Do keep in mind that the United States is a product of the Enlightenment, something that originated in Catholic France, a country that also happens to be the oldest ally of the United States.

                            https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...ks-to-italians

                            http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/columbus-day
                            Doesn't matter, since Columbus never discovered the region known as United States of America at all. Didn't even get that close.

                            And the true credit probably goes to the Vikings.
                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              Good post, just a couple of tidbits here:

                              1) not only were Italians distrusted by the US' Protestant majority, they were also distrusted by the Roman Catholic immigrants who'd preceded them -- the Irish. The Irish viewed the Italians as completely alien, as competitors for the low-end jobs that had long been an Irish domain, as interlopers who hadn't "earned their spurs" like the Irish had in the New World, and since Rome had dictated that New York and Boston were Irish territory (all Roman Catholic prelates in NY, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago are always of Irish-American descent, never Italian) the Irish view of Catholicism predominated. Hence there was much tension between the Irish-dominated East Coast archdioceses and the newly-arrived Italian parishioners. Here's a bit from the Times:



                              2) did not the Enlightenment start not in France, but in England and Scotland -- at least the stuff that was truly useful, and ultimately influenced views in the New World?
                              Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.
                              Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                              Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                              Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                                Thanks Marc. Having studied the Enlightenment extensively I tend to regard it primarily as a French phenomenon. With that being said I would be loath to argue that it was solely French. Notable figures include Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677) Spinoza, a Jewish-Dutch philosopher. We also have Immanuel Kant was an influential German philosopher whose ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ sought to unite reason with experience and move philosophy on from the debate between rationalists and empiricists. Rene Descartes (1596 – 1650) and his contribution to the philosophy of rationalism. There is, of course, John Locke (1632 – 1704) credited with the social contract – the idea government needs to be with the consent of the governed who also argued for liberty, religious tolerance and rights to life and property. There is also Voltaire (1694 – 1778) and his satire and criticisms of social convention who was instrumental in promoting Republican ideas. There is also Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) who sought to promote a more egalitarian form of government by consent and formed the basis of modern republicanism. In America Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), a key figure in the American Enlightenment as well as Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), author of The Declaration of Independence. Finally, there is also the Italian jurist Cesare, Marchese Beccaria, who argued for due process and made a case against cruel and unusual punishment.
                                "Against cruel and unusual punishment"? An Italian? Now that's funny...
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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