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  • #46
    Originally posted by JML View Post
    So what? As if US hasn't wiped several nations from existence. You claim to be native American yet it hasn't stopped you from serving people who did same to native Americans as Nazis did to Jews.
    This is a history forum, J. I don't have the time or the pity to explain full dynamics of US-NA interaction, but I will point out that:

    1) There's no comparison between the Final Solution, which your father's generation fought and died in service to, and what was done to Native Americans.

    2) Native Americans are only a single block of people when viewed through the eyes of uneducated bigots. My peoples' chief gripe with the USA is that it didn't do a better job on the Comanche or the Cherokee.

    Originally posted by JML View Post
    Where have i claimed that they get handouts from Finland. It should have been obvious that handouts i referred are from US especially given that i said dollars. But given that you are cop it is not surprising that you missed obvious. Probably got distracted by donuts.
    I did note that Israel received no money from Finland's sad little economy, despite the fact that as willing, if incompetent, defenders of the Final Solution you have a moral obligation. Perhaps reading comprehension is the issue?
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
      I agree completely that it is kabuki theater.
      But so was keeping our embassy in Tel Aviv.

      We shouldn't have our decisions dictated by the threats of people who hate us already.
      It isn't as if the various terror groups in the mid east (and I include Hamas) were going to be nice to us if we didn't do this.

      I could be wrong, but I don't think it will raise the terror threat level here simply because the people who would attack us for this would attack us for any level of support for Israel.
      The biggest problem with the whole they shouldn't dictate to us is these are the same people we are trying to get to help us with NK and Iran.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by craven View Post
        The biggest problem with the whole they shouldn't dictate to us is these are the same people we are trying to get to help us with NK and Iran.
        Really? As I read it they message was deliver to the muslim nations trying to pass a resolution ordering the US to move their embassy.

        But if I am wrong, other than the UK and Israel who do we have as an ally that can be relied upon to stand with us, and are worth anything in a fight?

        We certainly haven't seen any sort of significant help in the war on terror other than from those two nations.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
          Yes, the US was brutal to indians.
          First, can you identify those nations in existence that did not achieve their present borders by war or conquest?
          I know you will avoid that question, but the answer is probably none.
          Second, I'm pretty sure that we did not have gas chambers or mass executions of indian peoples.
          Yes, we were brutal to them and they were brutal to us and to each other. It wasn't like the Indians were all living in peace with each other at any time before the US came along, and even after.
          Third, How far back are we allowed to go when determining moral high ground?
          Given that you appear to be from Finland can we presently dismiss all Finland's actions because they fought as allies to the very Nazis you accuse the US of emulating? That is much more recent history than our treatment of the indians 125+ years ago.

          Fourth, What actual nations did the US wipe out?
          Or are you referring to our actions towards the indians in another manner in an effort to make it look like something else?

          How many nations did we conquer then help reestablish?
          Japan and Germany seem to be doing quite well these days.
          Why would i have problems with admitting that no nation has archived it's present borders without conquest?

          Technology for gas chambers didn't exist back then. Since i am not expert on matter i hope you will forgive me quoting some examples from wikipedia on US action which are awfully similar to nazi actions.
          Historians such as David Stannard[63] and Barbara Mann[64] have noted that the army deliberately routed the march of the Cherokee to pass through areas of known cholera epidemic, such as Vicksburg. Stannard estimates that during the forced removal from their homelands, following the Indian Removal Act signed into law by President Andrew Jackson in 1830, 8000 Cherokee died, about half the total population.
          By 1849, due to Spanish and Mexican colonization and epidemics this number had decreased to 100,000. But from 1849 and up until 1890 the Indigenous population of California had fallen below 20,000, primarily because of the killings.
          I have no problems acknowledging that Finland fought as allies with Nazis. So what? We had own problems and alliance with them was best alternative for us. When it comes to moral high ground i doubt there is nation which can claim it.

          English is not my first languages but it is my understanding that Indian tribes can be referred nation.
          "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
          Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            Really? As I read it they message was deliver to the muslim nations trying to pass a resolution ordering the US to move their embassy.

            But if I am wrong, other than the UK and Israel who do we have as an ally that can be relied upon to stand with us, and are worth anything in a fight?

            We certainly haven't seen any sort of significant help in the war on terror other than from those two nations.
            seemed to be a blanket statement to me from what I read but I could be wrong Santa Trump is making a list of who naughty or nice

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by JML View Post
              I have no problems acknowledging that Finland fought as allies with Nazis. So what? We had own problems and alliance with them was best alternative for us.
              Sure, we understand. Taking a moral stand was simply too hard. Better to fight and die in the furtherance of the Final Solution.

              Originally posted by JML View Post
              English is not my first languages but it is my understanding that Indian tribes can be referred nation.
              You are wrong.

              The whites interrupted several very promising wars on the Plains alone. There are very little cultural or social ties between the Plains tribes and those of the East, or the West coast.

              Saying the Native Americans are a nation is akin to saying that there is no difference between Finns and Afghanis.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by craven View Post
                seemed to be a blanket statement to me from what I read but I could be wrong Santa Trump is making a list of who naughty or nice
                That was the message I got: that future aid and other considerations would be impacted by actions made in the UN, but it was directed specifically at the muslim nations trying to dictate policy to the USA.
                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                  Sure, we understand. Taking a moral stand was simply too hard. Better to fight and die in the furtherance of the Final Solution.



                  You are wrong.

                  The whites interrupted several very promising wars on the Plains alone. There are very little cultural or social ties between the Plains tribes and those of the East, or the West coast.

                  Saying the Native Americans are a nation is akin to saying that there is no difference between Finns and Afghanis.
                  What moral stand you were taking while hiding behind oceans first two years of war and getting involved only when attacked?

                  No one took moral stand for us in 1939. So why would take moral stand for some one else in 1941.

                  I meant single tribe = nation. Such as Cheyenne.
                  From online dictionary. One of definitions of nation.
                  a member tribe of an American Indian confederatio
                  "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
                  Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JML View Post
                    What moral stand you were taking while hiding behind oceans first two years of war and getting involved only when attacked?

                    No one took moral stand for us in 1939. So why would take moral stand for some one else in 1941.
                    So morality is only an issue if others display it?

                    We didn't let Hitler take power and dischard the treaties, that was a European failure.

                    Finland fought for Nazi Germany. There's no dodging that stink.

                    Originally posted by JML View Post
                    I meant single tribe = nation. Such as Cheyenne.
                    From online dictionary. One of definitions of nation.
                    Absurd. Some eastern tribes had a faint semblance of nationhood, but of the Plains tribes only the Cheyenne had a concept greater than clan groupings. The name Cheyenne, for example, is applied to two separate groups which are still recognized today by the Federal government as two distinct, and separate, bodies. Neither group calls itself Cheyenne in their native tongue.

                    The 'nations' are simply terms applied by the settlers, much like the term 'chief'. And are generally about as accurate. For example 'Cheyenne ' is based on a Cree word. What the whites called 'Comanche' were actually three separate groups, as another example.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Karri View Post


                      Sure, like americans suddenly find the hidden joys of producing jeans, gadgets and whatnot for dollar a day. Good luck with that!
                      The US doesn't NEED jeans, gadgets and what not as much as the countries that produce the said items NEED the US to buy them.
                      Have a nice Christmas season, Karri.
                      ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                      IN MARE IN COELO

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                        So morality is only an issue if others display it?

                        We didn't let Hitler take power and dischard the treaties, that was a European failure.

                        Finland fought for Nazi Germany. There's no dodging that stink.



                        Absurd. Some eastern tribes had a faint semblance of nationhood, but of the Plains tribes only the Cheyenne had a concept greater than clan groupings. The name Cheyenne, for example, is applied to two separate groups which are still recognized today by the Federal government as two distinct, and separate, bodies. Neither group calls itself Cheyenne in their native tongue.

                        The 'nations' are simply terms applied by the settlers, much like the term 'chief'. And are generally about as accurate. For example 'Cheyenne ' is based on a Cree word. What the whites called 'Comanche' were actually three separate groups, as another example.
                        No Finland fought for Finland. Just like all nations fight for their own interests.
                        "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
                        Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Back to topic of thread. Resolution was passed by 128 for and nine against. Among those that voted for resolution is UK.
                          How did UN members vote?

                          The nine who voted against the resolution were the US, Israel, Guatemala, Honduras, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo
                          Among the 35 abstaining were Canada and Mexico
                          Those voting in favour included the other four permanent members of the UN Security Council (China, France, Russia and the UK) as well as key US allies in the Muslim world
                          There were 21 countries who did not turn up for the vote.
                          http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42446027
                          "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
                          Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JML View Post
                            No Finland fought for Finland. Just like all nations fight for their own interests.
                            No see the Anti-Comintern Pact. Finland fought for and with Nazi Germany.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by JML View Post
                              Back to topic of thread. Resolution was passed by 128 for and nine against. Among those that voted for resolution is UK.
                              http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42446027
                              Wait until we start cutting funding. Let's let those nations support their own agendas then. Big bad Russia can have Europe. **** em.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JML View Post
                                No Finland fought for Finland. Just like all nations fight for their own interests.
                                This is a history forum, J. Finland fought for Nazi Germany. That's why we declared war upon you. You served the Final Solution.

                                And here you are, with your sharp-looking avatar, hating on the Jews.

                                Things don't appear to have changed a lot.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                                Comment

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