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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
    Agreed, but it seems that is what they are doing. Mind you, Canada is pressing for higher labour standards for mexico, including wages.
    They are indeed but they should proceed with caution. They need the US more than the US need them. Trump won't hesitate to kill NAFTA if negotiations don't go his way.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nikki View Post
      They are indeed but they should proceed with caution. They need the US more than the US need them. Trump won't hesitate to kill NAFTA if negotiations don't go his way.
      This is true. In fact, there is pressure to kill NAFTA outright from a variety of groups.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        This is true. In fact, there is pressure to kill NAFTA outright from a variety of groups.
        Funny thing is is that NAFTA was never particularly popular in Canada to begin with.

        Personally, Free Trade between U.S. & Canada is a good thing. However, Free trade with non-wage (safety & enviromental regulations etc) comparable nations is not as a good as it destroys industry in the more developed nation.
        It sucks for Mexico, but there problem is their social and political instability. If they were, somehow, to solve that they would be a far wealthier (and happier) nation than they are and have been.

        Tuebor

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tuebor View Post
          Funny thing is is that NAFTA was never particularly popular in Canada to begin with.

          Personally, Free Trade between U.S. & Canada is a good thing. However, Free trade with non-wage (safety & enviromental regulations etc) comparable nations is not as a good as it destroys industry in the more developed nation.
          It sucks for Mexico, but there problem is their social and political instability. If they were, somehow, to solve that they would be a far wealthier (and happier) nation than they are and have been.

          Tuebor
          I agree generally with that. If the problem with NAFTA is low Mexican wages then the solution must be to raise Mexican wages. If they did it would make it more even to compete. At $5.00 an hour most of the income is going to rent and food. At $10 an hour they start buying more consumer products and become a better market for American companies.

          No one knows how the present NAFTA negotiations will play out. It's still not clear that The US side even wants a deal of any sort and may be just going through the motions as a cover to abrogate the treaty.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
            If the problem with NAFTA is low Mexican wages then the solution must be to raise Mexican wages. If they did it would make it more even to compete.
            Why would Mexico want to raise wages? Cheap wages are what brings jobs to Mexico in the first place.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Nikki View Post
              They are indeed but they should proceed with caution. They need the US more than the US need them. Trump won't hesitate to kill NAFTA if negotiations don't go his way.
              All true. Still no deal will fly in Canada if it's seen as a "capitulation". There is no great basis for grievance with Canada as the U.S. is running a surplus with Canada on goods and services and a huge surplus in manufacturing and is the number one supplier of all forms of energy. Nevertheless, it's Canada, not Mexico or China that is being hit with the majority of trade actions; softwood lumber, BC wine, Bombardier, dairy. Canadians are starting to get their backs up on what seem to be incendiary remarks from Wilbur Ross and the US trade rep Lightizer. Every bit of these negotiations are being closely followed in the Canadian press and regularly make front page news. Canada is beginning to resign itself to a failure of these talks and future without NAFTA.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                Why would Mexico want to raise wages? Cheap wages are what brings jobs to Mexico in the first place.
                To keep NAFTA and to raise national income and boost the economy. They would still have a wage advantage but it would be narrower and the capital investments in plants are already there.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                  To keep NAFTA and to raise national income and boost the economy. They would still have a wage advantage but it would be narrower and the capital investments in plants are already there.
                  This is not how the real world works. All those businesses which have invested in Mexico in order to take advantage of cheap wages would object to attempts to artificially raise wages in Mexico. Moreover, those local Mexican communities wherein these investments have been made would also object, concerned that attempts to raise wages in Mexico may drive jobs away. The existing system and arrangement has created its own self-interested constituencies on both sides of the border along with corresponding lobbying forces and political contacts.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                    This is not how the real world works. All those businesses which have invested in Mexico in order to take advantage of cheap wages would object to attempts to artificially raise wages in Mexico. Moreover, those local Mexican communities wherein these investments have been made would also object, concerned that attempts to raise wages in Mexico may drive jobs away. The existing system and arrangement has created its own self-interested constituencies on both sides of the border along with corresponding lobbying forces and political contacts.
                    Improved labour standards under NAFTA is being pressed by Canada at the current negotiations. It is more in the form of incremental improvements and a way forward than it would be a sudden shift to Canadian and American wage scales .

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                    • #25
                      The next round of NAFTA talks start Friday in Mexico and the Canadian side has announced it will be taking a hard line in the negotiations.

                      https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/new...+Article+Links

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                        This is not how the real world works. All those businesses which have invested in Mexico in order to take advantage of cheap wages would object to attempts to artificially raise wages in Mexico. Moreover, those local Mexican communities wherein these investments have been made would also object, concerned that attempts to raise wages in Mexico may drive jobs away. The existing system and arrangement has created its own self-interested constituencies on both sides of the border along with corresponding lobbying forces and political contacts.
                        Then no NAFTA for them and it only between the US and Canada

                        That the end result of what Trump has been pushing

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by craven View Post
                          Then no NAFTA for them and it only between the US and Canada

                          That the end result of what Trump has been pushing
                          Because Mr Trump is only interested in bilateral rather than multinational trade deals.
                          This reasoning for this preference is obvious. With bilateral negotiations the USA will always dominate because ,as an entity, it will always be larger than the power it's dealing with. This advantage does not hold good in dealing with a syndicate of nations.
                          "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                          Samuel Johnson.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                            Because Mr Trump is only interested in bilateral rather than multinational trade deals.
                            This reasoning for this preference is obvious. With bilateral negotiations the USA will always dominate because ,as an entity, it will always be larger than the power it's dealing with. This advantage does not hold good in dealing with a syndicate of nations.
                            In 1988 Canada and the US negotiated a pretty good bilateral FTA after a tough negotiation. In 1994 it was the United States that wanted a three way deal and it was Canada that opposed it but eventually Canada went along with it to produce NAFTA. The problem now is this - if NAFTA is abrogated how does the USA get a better deal with either of the other two after the USA presented tough proposals that were rejected by both other countries in the current negotiations? Neither Canada nor Mexico are going to accept terms that they just rejected, internal domestic politics will prevent it. It is possible that Canada will fall back on the previous FTA (which was only suspended) and Mexico will be left out in the cold. It's also possible that the previous Canada/US FTA will not be reactivated and both Canada and mexico will turn away from the USA. And it's also possible that "ZOMBIE NAFTA" will soldier on indefinitely because NAFTA could be abrogated by the executive but Congressional implementation legislation would not be repealed. It's a very messy situation but both Canada and mexico now have their backs up against accepting what is perceived as unreasonable US demands that would not be accepted either bilaterally or multi-laterally.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                              This is not how the real world works. All those businesses which have invested in Mexico in order to take advantage of cheap wages would object to attempts to artificially raise wages in Mexico. Moreover, those local Mexican communities wherein these investments have been made would also object, concerned that attempts to raise wages in Mexico may drive jobs away. The existing system and arrangement has created its own self-interested constituencies on both sides of the border along with corresponding lobbying forces and political contacts.
                              If Trump want more businesses to come back to the US, all he need to do is support higher wages in Mexico and Canada.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Nikki View Post
                                If Trump want more businesses to come back to the US, all he need to do is support higher wages in Mexico and Canada.
                                Which is exactly what Trump is negotiating for. Trump want higher wages in Mexico to deter companies from moving south of the border. He's also pushing for better working conditions in Mexico. Redrafting NAFTA should be advantageous for all, if done properly.
                                "Never argue with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience" George Carlin

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