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  • FBI database for gun buyers missing millions of records

    Your government at work

    The FBI’s background-check system is missing millions of records of criminal convictions, mental illness diagnoses and other flags that would keep guns out of potentially dangerous hands, a gap that contributed to the shooting deaths of 26 people in a Texas church this week.

    Experts who study the data say government agencies responsible for maintaining such records have long failed to forward them into federal databases used for gun background checks — systemic breakdowns that have lingered for decades as officials decided they were too costly and time-consuming to fix.

    As the shooting at a Texas church on Sunday showed, what the FBI doesn’t know can get people killed. In that case, the gunman had been convicted at a court-martial of charges stemming from a domestic violence case. Officials say the Air Force never notified the FBI of his conviction, so when he purchased weapons at a retail store, he cleared the background check
    The FBI said it doesn’t know the scope of the problem, but the National Rifle Association says about 7 million records are absent from the system, based on a 2013 report by the nonprofit National Consortium for Justice Information and Statistics. That report determined that “at least 25% of felony convictions . . . are not available” to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System maintained by the FBI.

    Experts who study the data say that estimate can be misleading, because felons often have multiple convictions, so if one is missed, others may still alert authorities to individuals who cannot legally buy a gun.



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fb...rds/ar-BBEPuJB
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

  • #2
    Not that backgrounds stop felons from getting guns. Large portions of the nation simply don't do them, and if gun sales are particularly heavy the Feds don't either.

    And background checks only apply to a fraction of the legal sales of firearms, and to none of the illegal sales of firearms.

    The entire background check process is simply an expensive gesture created by the liberals back when they actually had some traction on gun control.
    Last edited by Arnold J Rimmer; 11 Nov 17, 00:43.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      Not that backgrounds stop felons from getting guns. Large portions of the nation simply don't do them, and if gun sales are particularly heavy the Feds don't either.

      And background checks only apply to a fraction of the legal sales of firearms, and to none of the illegal sales of firearms.

      The entire background check process is simply an expensive gesture created by the liberals back when they actually had some traction on gun control.
      It seems you are saying that either the American criminals are smarter than the ones of the rest of the world, or the American enforcement personnel is the most stupid in the world. There is no other explanation to explain why the US experiences the results we see when its system supposedly is not part of the problem.

      Meanwhile, here are some "liberals" from the NRA who are also talking about the need to change the situation with the background checks



      And yes as long as the law does not hold accountable federal and state employees with similar to yours ideas, it is natural to see how the law's intention for background checks is undermined and why "Large portions of the nation simply don't do them"

      Here is an example of the laws we have, and why they are ineffective...

      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922


      (6) Neither a local government nor an employee of the Federal Government or of any State or local government, responsible for providing information to the national instant criminal background check system shall be liable in an action at law for damages—
      (A) for failure to prevent the sale or transfer of a firearm to a person whose receipt or possession of the firearm is unlawful under this section;
      or
      (B) for preventing such a sale or transfer to a person who may lawfully receive or possess a firearm.
      Meanwhile, let's ignore the issues we can control and change and talk about the liberals or the illegal gun trade or anything away from the things we DO control, because as usual, conservatives are good talking about "personal responsibility" and responsible and accountable government, as long as it is not about gun background checks. If it is the latter, then the tone changes and we hear how incapable and helpless conservatives feel we are...
      Last edited by pamak; 11 Nov 17, 03:49.
      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

      Comment


      • #4
        Pamak, Convicted Felons and the criminal type rarely obtain their guns legally. There are tons of sources for them illegally such as thief, the Black Market, and the various drug cartels around the world. One only has to look at the gun violence in Mexico which is a very difficult country to legally get a gun, where a couple of US citizens are rotting in Mexican jails for having been caught with their legally purchased one, being unable to make a U turn at one border crossing in California until they were forced to cross the border in order to turn around.

        As far as the record keeping goes,
        1. it is only as good as the information sent to the FBI about convicted Felons.
        2. One can easily lie on the forum which is what the latest mass killer did.
        3. Obama's ATF ordered local gun dealers near the Mexican Border to allow the sales of semiautomatic rifles to Mexican Cartel Gun Runners when those dealers reported the activity to them as required by law.

        So, if it has failed, it is because the Democrats planned it to do so, like the guns allowed to be sold to Mexican Cartel Gang Gun runners for the purpose of creating support for more gun control.
        “Breaking News,”

        “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pamak View Post
          It seems you are saying that either the American criminals are smarter than the ones of the rest of the world, or the American enforcement personnel is the most stupid in the world. There is no other explanation to explain why the US experiences the results we see when its system supposedly is not part of the problem.

          Meanwhile, here are some "liberals" from the NRA who are also talking about the need to change the situation with the background checks



          And yes as long as the law does not hold accountable federal and state employees with similar to yours ideas, it is natural to see how the law's intention for background checks is undermined and why "Large portions of the nation simply don't do them"

          Here is an example of the laws we have, and why they are ineffective...

          https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922




          Meanwhile, let's ignore the issues we can control and change and talk about the liberals or the illegal gun trade or anything away from the things we DO control, because as usual, conservatives are good talking about "personal responsibility" and responsible and accountable government, as long as it is not about gun background checks. If it is the latter, then the tone changes and we hear how incapable and helpless conservatives feel we are...



          You are confusing "personal responsibility" with "governmental immunity ".
          What you see as a conservative conspiracy to avoid "personal responsibility" for a governmental employee's failure to do their job properly is not a unique feature of background checks but applies to nearly all governmental activities.
          All governmental employees are held to a different standard than the private sector with respect to the performance of their jobs.

          One of the reasons for this is to prevent the government from going bankrupt defending itself against frivolous lawsuits.
          Generally speaking, the failure to perform a background check properly would never result in liability unless the employee did it intentionally or "knew or should have known" of the subject's intention to use the gun in the commission of a crime. If those elements were present then there would be ways around the immunity provision and the employee would likely be subject to criminal charges.

          The language you cite above is there to cut off the stupid lawsuits at the beginning rather than forcing the government to stay in the case for years.
          Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

          Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

          Comment


          • #6
            How could this happen? The people in Government are so much smarter than the rest of us. They never make mistakes. We need more of them to fix every problem.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mystikeye View Post
              How could this happen? The people in Government are so much smarter than the rest of us. They never make mistakes. We need more of them to fix every problem.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
                Pamak, Convicted Felons and the criminal type rarely obtain their guns legally. There are tons of sources for them illegally such as thief, the Black Market, and the various drug cartels around the world. One only has to look at the gun violence in Mexico which is a very difficult country to legally get a gun, where a couple of US citizens are rotting in Mexican jails for having been caught with their legally purchased one, being unable to make a U turn at one border crossing in California until they were forced to cross the border in order to turn around.

                As far as the record keeping goes,
                1. it is only as good as the information sent to the FBI about convicted Felons.
                2. One can easily lie on the forum which is what the latest mass killer did.
                3. Obama's ATF ordered local gun dealers near the Mexican Border to allow the sales of semiautomatic rifles to Mexican Cartel Gun Runners when those dealers reported the activity to them as required by law.

                So, if it has failed, it is because the Democrats planned it to do so, like the guns allowed to be sold to Mexican Cartel Gang Gun runners for the purpose of creating support for more gun control.
                Well, he did! Four times...

                In addition, it is not unusual to see mass shooters who do not have the criminal background that can give them the luxury of having established contacts with illegal guns. Not all criminals with domestic violence convictions have links to guns in the black-market. As I said, putting one more obstacle in front of them, especially when some of them are really "rookies" gives them one more chance to screw-up things before they start shooting people...
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mystikeye View Post
                  How could this happen? The people in Government are so much smarter than the rest of us. They never make mistakes. We need more of them to fix every problem.
                  I gave you the law. Did you read it?

                  The people in government (including states) are not held accountable. It is specifically mentioned in the law! And since many of them hold the ideas we hear in this forum by some pro-gun posters, they have no problem with undermining the system.

                  Notice also that according to the NRA, it is not that all states decide to report only 80% of their felon convictions. Some, apparently, do not have this problem according to the NRA video I posted. It is therefore obvious that when there is a will, the system of inputing information in the database CAN work!
                  Last edited by pamak; 11 Nov 17, 12:28.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are numerous laws in the books intended to make society safer that are just not implemented. This is one of them.
                    How many felons would be off the streets if the law were adhered to by all agencies?
                    We will never know.
                    Congress has a terrible record of passing laws and legal procedures, licensing and permitting authority. Then failing to provide funding required to institute these rule.
                    The end result is a lot of paper work under threat of prosecution for gun store owners and those citizens who are law abiding citizens. And a good laugh for LEOs and their many customers the hard core criminals.
                    If the system had been strictly followed 26 people would still be alive today, the killer would have been arrested for violating the terms of his parole and for lying on the ATF form.
                    I know AJ won’t agree with that assessment. But the penalty is written right on the form.
                    Last edited by Urban hermit; 11 Nov 17, 16:30.
                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      I gave you the law. Did you read it?

                      The people in government (including states) are not held accountable. It is specifically mentioned in the law! And since many of them hold the ideas we hear in this forum by some pro-gun posters, they have no problem with undermining the system.

                      Notice also that according to the NRA, it is not that all states decide to report only 80% of their felon convictions. Some, apparently, do not have this problem according to the NRA video I posted. It is therefore obvious that when there is a will, the system of inputing information in the database CAN work!


                      You gave him the law, but you did not understand it. I explained it, but you are ignoring that so as to hold onto your delusions.
                      The immunity has nothing to do with the NRA, conservatives or any other groups you hate.

                      If you don't understand how governmental immunity works (or the law), you would do well to stop trying to blame it on people you don't like.
                      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                        You gave him the law, but you did not understand it. I explained it, but you are ignoring that so as to hold onto your delusions.
                        The immunity has nothing to do with the NRA, conservatives or any other groups you hate.

                        If you don't understand how governmental immunity works (or the law), you would do well to stop trying to blame it on people you don't like.

                        It is not an issue of "government immunity." It is an issue of will to prosecute or not people who do not follow the law and the proper procedures. When lawmakers are really serious, they have no problem to have laws that send to prison federal employees who do not follow them as for example in how they handle classified material.

                        https://books.google.com/books?id=6t...yee%22&f=false
                        Last edited by pamak; 11 Nov 17, 13:32.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pamak View Post
                          I gave you the law. Did you read it?

                          The people in government (including states) are not held accountable. It is specifically mentioned in the law! And since many of them hold the ideas we hear in this forum by some pro-gun posters, they have no problem with undermining the system.

                          Notice also that according to the NRA, it is not that all states decide to report only 80% of their felon convictions. Some, apparently, do not have this problem according to the NRA video I posted. It is therefore obvious that when there is a will, the system of inputing information in the database CAN work!
                          With all do respect, you are, in effect, making the NRA's point for them...or at least one of their points. The NRA asserts that we don't need new laws, we need to enforce the laws that are on the books. You're proving that to be 100% correct. If the current laws aren't going to be enforced, what good does it do to enact more laws?

                          Firearms background checks are a federal law/function. It's not on the states if the folks in DC fail to do so correctly/thoroughly. Why should people care if a law that they don't agree with, or like, is enforced? It's not the individual persons responsibility to enforce those laws. Ultimately you cannot stop people from breaking the law if the choose to do so, otherwise we wouldn't have prisons.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            It is not an issue of "government immunity." It is an issue of will to prosecute or not people who do not follow the law and the proper procedures. When lawmakers are really serious, they have no problem to have laws that send to prison federal employees who do not follow them as for example in how they handle classified material.

                            https://books.google.com/books?id=6t...yee%22&f=false

                            Except it is an issue of governmental immunity. That is the entire point of such a provision. You can’t wish that simple fact away.
                            If it is a function of governmental immunity then your whole point in trying to blame conservatives falls apart.
                            This type of provision applies to all federal workers regardless of the work they do.

                            Selling government secrets is vastly different from accidentally failing to do a background check. The fact that you fail to understand the difference hurts your argument rather than helps it.

                            Classified material belongs to the government. As a result, it is treated differently from a routine clerical function. There is no government employee anywhere (state, local, federal) who will be held liable for negligent performance of his job. That simple fact, wrecks your attempt to blame that provision on conservatives.

                            Try to sue the State for issuing a driver’s license to someone who will use his car in the commission of a crime, or the DEpartment of Transportaion for a poorly designed road, or failure to place signs. Governmental immunity prevents all such suits and is not the result of those evil, bad conservatives.
                            Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                            Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is what happens when you give authority to a bunch of people but no responsibility to get something done. Since there is little or no reward or penalty for getting this done, it isn't going to get done.

                              Why concern yourself with something you get nothing out it for doing, and you have a dozen other things that if they don't get done, you get fired or don't get paid? Background checks and this criminal record database are legally built on the equivalent of a Marxist house of straw. That is, the assumption in the law is you will act responsibly and do your part correctly every time simply because that's what the law requires even though you get little or nothing in return for doing it. It further assumes that everyone will correctly use the database and catch all of the potential illegal buyers every time.
                              Since no one, anywhere, is going to be held responsible for the results nobody's going to do more than the minimum, if that, in entering data.

                              Comment

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