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  • #46
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    Neither would help. There is no legal framework for government intrusion into peoples' lives on that scale.

    In fact, there is ample case law specifically prohibiting government intrusion in mental health cases.
    The mental issue can still be addressed by the courts which are not part of the government. In fact, the courts already get involved in such matters...
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #47
      R.I.P..

      Jesus said-

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        Neither would help. There is no legal framework for government intrusion into peoples' lives on that scale.

        In fact, there is ample case law specifically prohibiting government intrusion in mental health cases.
        Um, I've got a problem. My dad is batshit crazy from strokes and Alzheimers and he's armed. Called the sheriff, talked to mental health people, talked to the hospital staff, talked with his personal doctor and have no other choice than to get him out of home for a couple of hours so I can pull the firing pins from his pretty vast collection.

        No help from the crazy left who wants gun control. Hell I even related a story where I almost got shot by his negligent waving a gun around mindlessly. He didn't even consider that he was waving a loaded gun about.
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          Neither would help. There is no legal framework for government intrusion into peoples' lives on that scale.

          In fact, there is ample case law specifically prohibiting government intrusion in mental health cases.
          Which is part of the interesting history in this situation. We saw what happened when the authorities and medical community had too much authority in the past, and decades of case law has established many such checks on the ability for the state to act on mental health issues.

          But even if the GOP had a workable solution, even if they could somehow get the necessary policies on the books, even if the people went along with it... you'd still have that mountain to climb that is increased public spending, more bureaucrats, and a larger public health construct.

          Anyone else betting on a "status quo", "lets just hope it doesn't happen again?" response?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
            Um, I've got a problem. My dad is batshit crazy from strokes and Alzheimers and he's armed. Called the sheriff, talked to mental health people, talked to the hospital staff, talked with his personal doctor and have no other choice than to get him out of home for a couple of hours so I can pull the firing pins from his pretty vast collection.

            No help from the crazy left who wants gun control. Hell I even related a story where I almost got shot by his negligent waving a gun around mindlessly. He didn't even consider that he was waving a loaded gun about.
            Dealing with the mentally ill as a caretaker is consistently rated as one of the most emotionally trying and exhausting experiences one can go through. And most people have enough trouble just trying to take their car keys away from their folks when they can't drive safely anymore.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              Um, I've got a problem. My dad is batshit crazy from strokes and Alzheimers and he's armed. Called the sheriff, talked to mental health people, talked to the hospital staff, talked with his personal doctor and have no other choice than to get him out of home for a couple of hours so I can pull the firing pins from his pretty vast collection.

              No help from the crazy left who wants gun control. Hell I even related a story where I almost got shot by his negligent waving a gun around mindlessly. He didn't even consider that he was waving a loaded gun about.
              Without being an expert, from what I can recall from a conversation I had once with a lawyer in California (and of course laws change from state to state), you need something like a court order for mental incapacity. Now obviously, I do not know the proper legal terminology, but I do recall that the lawyer I mentioned above did something similar to what I am describing. He was involved in cases when children were given authority to manage the property of their incapacitated old parents. So, I think you need to talk to a lawyer about this...
              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                Which is part of the interesting history in this situation. We saw what happened when the authorities and medical community had too much authority in the past, and decades of case law has established many such checks on the ability for the state to act on mental health issues.
                No, we see what happens when liberals find an actual problem and throw temper tantrums until the symptoms are ended, then losing all interest in the fact that no solution was created.

                They simply closed the mental health facilities, dispersed the trained staff along with the bad, and kicked the insane (literally, some left in pajamas and slippers) out into the street.

                And we've been playing catch-up ever since.

                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                But even if the GOP had a workable solution, even if they could somehow get the necessary policies on the books, even if the people went along with it... you'd still have that mountain to climb that is increased public spending, more bureaucrats, and a larger public health construct.

                Anyone else betting on a "status quo", "lets just hope it doesn't happen again?" response?
                There is no other option than status quo. There is no cure for mental illnesses, just containment of symptoms in some cases.

                Or you can lock up millions of US citizens for life.

                Most mentally ill people pose little threat to anyone except perhaps themselves.
                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                  There is no cure for mental illnesses, just containment of symptoms in some cases..
                  Or in extreme cases- euthanasia.
                  My 76 year old mother became a vegetable with thyroid complications and the hospital medics said they could keep pumping her full of drugs to keep her alive even though she was technically braindead, and they were basically asking my permission to switch her off, so I said "Ok, we'll let her go", so they pulled the plug and she slipped peacefully away that night, a nice clean exit..
                  PS- in fact I hope somebody switches me off too if I'm hit with serious illness in the future.
                  Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 05 Nov 17, 21:20.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    No, we see what happens when liberals find an actual problem and throw temper tantrums until the symptoms are ended, then losing all interest in the fact that no solution was created.

                    They simply closed the mental health facilities, dispersed the trained staff along with the bad, and kicked the insane (literally, some left in pajamas and slippers) out into the street.

                    And we've been playing catch-up ever since.
                    So the conservatives were just powerless the whole time to do anything. Funny how that works.

                    Or you can lock up millions of US citizens for life.
                    That is our preferred solution as a nation. Our prisons are, what, the largest provider of mental health care at the moment?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                      So the conservatives were just powerless the whole time to do anything. Funny how that works.



                      That is our preferred solution as a nation. Our prisons are, what, the largest provider of mental health care at the moment?
                      Same with the homeless of whom a big percentage is mentally ill people with an average life expectancy of somewhere in the 50's IIRC. And some people try to defend this status quo by talking about personal freedom, which is like arguing to let children of 5 years old (because some mentally ill people DO have the mental capacity of a 5 year old) manage their lives by themselves because they should be free.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by pamak View Post
                        You do not member history...

                        Your forgot Reagan' s policies regarding mental institutions, including when he was California's governor. You see mental health is expensive...
                        He is essentially correct. Although most of the exposes of mental health institute conditions happened in the 70s, not 60s. That's how Geraldo Rivera made a name for himself, exposing the conditions of mental health hospitals in New York. The entire nation was up in arms over those exposes...and rightly so. Those old state mental hospitals would've been eliminated in the 80's no matter who was President. Reagan just happened to be the President when it place. If Carter had won, it would've been him.

                        I was in college in the early to mid 80s, I have minor in psychology. All, and I do mean ALL, of the psychological profession supported the elimination of those hospitals. It was one of the few things that my psychology professors agreed with Reagan on. It was thought that they were better treated in small community centers, or at home. That's how it remains to this day...at least in my state. We have a system of mental health centers set up across the state. Most people that are treated by them are on an out patient classification. The really bad ones get to stay there for awhile.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                          Or in extreme cases- euthanasia.
                          My 76 year old mother became a vegetable with thyroid complications and the hospital medics said they could keep pumping her full of drugs to keep her alive even though she was technically braindead, and they were basically asking my permission to switch her off, so I said "Ok, we'll let her go", so they pulled the plug and she slipped peacefully away that night, a nice clean exit..
                          PS- in fact I hope somebody switches me off too if I'm hit with serious illness in the future.
                          Get a DNR filled out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_not_resuscitate

                          I neither want to be a burden on society or waste away on a bed.
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by phil74501 View Post
                            He is essentially correct. Although most of the exposes of mental health institute conditions happened in the 70s, not 60s. That's how Geraldo Rivera made a name for himself, exposing the conditions of mental health hospitals in New York. The entire nation was up in arms over those exposes...and rightly so. Those old state mental hospitals would've been eliminated in the 80's no matter who was President. Reagan just happened to be the President when it place. If Carter had won, it would've been him.

                            I was in college in the early to mid 80s, I have minor in psychology. All, and I do mean ALL, of the psychological profession supported the elimination of those hospitals. It was one of the few things that my psychology professors agreed with Reagan on. It was thought that they were better treated in small community centers, or at home. That's how it remains to this day...at least in my state. We have a system of mental health centers set up across the state. Most people that are treated by them are on an out patient classification. The really bad ones get to stay there for awhile.
                            He is not essentially correct, and Reagan WAS a governor at the time. So, instead of trying to score cheap political points, let's better address the issue with honesty! If you think that doctors and the AMA are liberals, you are mistaken. In addition, the people you mention were STILL talking about treating the mentally ill. It was just going t be in a different setting and way! It was the cost consideration which eventually left many of the mentally ill people untreated in the streets!
                            Last edited by pamak; 05 Nov 17, 22:34.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by American87 View Post
                              Do you think Bruce Springsteen will have a concert for "Mental Health Awareness?"

                              This is a good chance for Republicans to tackle a major source of murder and an issue that is important in its own right.
                              I'll never happen. Big pharma has too deep pockets. Look at this.

                              https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucele.../#22c0f7ab87db
                              Credo quia absurdum.


                              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                So the conservatives were just powerless the whole time to do anything. Funny how that works.
                                Back in the 60s and 70s it was easier to spark public outrage.Once the case law started rolling in there were no other options. I was around back then, and shortly thereafter I began thirty years of dealing with the mentally ill.

                                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                That is our preferred solution as a nation. Our prisons are, what, the largest provider of mental health care at the moment?
                                No.

                                They are the largest houser of the mentally ill. A large percentage of the mentally ill went from the now-defunct mental institutions, which were bad, into the prison system, which is infinitely worse.

                                Mental illness is not like typhoid, it isn't just a matter of inoculation or a specified regime of treatment. You are looking at a life-long condition which in many cases is highly demanding in terms of resources.

                                Add in that the definition of 'mental illness' is still subject to debate.

                                Mental institutions are not legally or publicly acceptable. Medication works in cases where the subject receives accurate diagnoses, are willing to cooperate, and have sufficient emotional infrastructure to cope. Counselling by trained professionals can help in many cases, but there are very few of such professionals in ratio to the demand.

                                Come up with a viable solution and they will build statues to you across the nation. Until then we have a system held together by bailing wire and duct tape.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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