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  • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    No, you believe in collective punishment, you want all gun-ownders found guilty until there are no more gun owners... as all gun-grabbers eventually admit when pressed on the matter.
    Your Laws FAILED.
    In 3 instances the killer should have been prevented from being able to buy guns by law and the data wasn't entered and all of those 20,000 anti-gun laws failed to stop this.
    I don't really think law # 20,001 would make any difference, except to make things harder for people who legally own guns.

    And BTW, yes, he was an atheist, and everyone knows it. Are you denying it because you can only perceive Atheists as being on the Left?
    Seems that way, but I'm here to tell you that's a dumb assumption.

    Reality check time-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5T2Il8et4k





    More good stuff-

    I do not know if you can follow the development of my arguments or the general conversation we have in this thread. But I will remind you that my arguments are NOT different from the NRA's arguments which I POSTED a while ago!



    So, apparently you believe that the NRA also believes in collective punishment.
    As for the shooter or the incident, feel free to use Molyneux as your source. I can as easily record a video with my views about the shooter and the incident. Apparently, people have come to believe that just because someone says something in Youtube, it must be credible...
    Last edited by pamak; 09 Nov 17, 01:13.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
      His conviction by the military court was not reported to the FBI, or the ATF, that failure allowed him to purchase weapons.
      There is a reason every gun dealer is required to submit an ATF form 61446
      https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
      Questions C. F. and Question G would have prevented him from possessing a weapon.
      There is no way around it AJ, the system screwed up.


      Only licensed gun dealers have to fill out that form.

      So Question G would have prevented him from buying a firearm IF he was buying a weapon legally from a dealer. Not if he was buying from a private individual. Or criminal.

      You're obsessing over trivia, UH. More guns change hands through private sales than dealers. And that is not counting strawman purchases and criminal sales.

      And that form you are referring to is done basically on the honor system. Are you suggesting that this guy was willing to kill 26 people but not lie on a form? C'mon. the Feds prosecute one in 50,000 cases of dealership paperwork fraud a year. That's an average of 3 cases a year out of an average of 150,000 falsely documented firearms sales. Some years they don't prosecute any.

      They 'system' is a sop to the various Federal laws the liberals have tried to pass since Slick Willie left office. They don't really stop anyone because there is no way to stop anyone from getting a firearm.

      Body armor is even more restricted than firearms, and he had that, too.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
        I get your drift, but what law has ever stopped anyone from doing what they want to do or intent to do?
        Laws are made for people that obey them, and most of us do, but some do not, and more laws on top of the laws we already have won't do a damn thing to people that disobey them now, they will disobey them in when new ones are made, there are no laws that can be made against gun ownership in the USA other than repealing the 2nd, and I don't see that happening, and then what is one to do about the over 300 million firearms owned by people in the US?
        It is what it is!
        If you can't prevent people to have guns (and you CAN'T), prevent them from using weapons to commit crimes :and that YOU CAN, but, balls are needed .And in 2017 they are not available .

        Comment


        • Those whom give away their rights for the illusion of safety deserve neither rights or safety. (Something like that).... Big Ben on the Ten

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post


            Only licensed gun dealers have to fill out that form.

            So Question G would have prevented him from buying a firearm IF he was buying a weapon legally from a dealer. Not if he was buying from a private individual. Or criminal.

            You're obsessing over trivia, UH. More guns change hands through private sales than dealers. And that is not counting strawman purchases and criminal sales.

            And that form you are referring to is done basically on the honor system. Are you suggesting that this guy was willing to kill 26 people but not lie on a form? C'mon. the Feds prosecute one in 50,000 cases of dealership paperwork fraud a year. That's an average of 3 cases a year out of an average of 150,000 falsely documented firearms sales. Some years they don't prosecute any.

            They 'system' is a sop to the various Federal laws the liberals have tried to pass since Slick Willie left office. They don't really stop anyone because there is no way to stop anyone from getting a firearm.

            Body armor is even more restricted than firearms, and he had that, too.
            The law is not trivial, he actually did purchase weapons from licensed dealers, and he has been interviewed by law enforcement and by media.
            The Military Court is part of our system.
            Someone in that court failed to follow protocol.
            That failure place you and every LEO in danger every time you may have pulled him over. He had an established behavioral pattern, there is a good reason why there are systems in place to keep track of people like him.
            You know this as well as anyone else. You are stuck on the idea that Constitutional rights can never be taken away.
            Go to any jail, or prison and take note, the inmates have lost a lot of the rights the rest of us enjoy. Even after being released they forfeit many rights, according to the legal documents I posted which are established law, one of those rights is to legally purchase or possess firearms.
            You may not like it, you may not agree with it. But that is the law.
            And get this, when he filled out those forms he lied, because if he did Mark any of those boxes and stated he was a convicted felon, or was dishonorably discharged the dealer would have refused to sell to him.
            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              They 'system' is a sop to the various Federal laws the liberals have tried to pass since Slick Willie left office. They don't really stop anyone because there is no way to stop anyone from getting a firearm.
              Just because you can't stop them completely doesn't mean you can't make it a lot harder and avoid some casualties. Or reduce certain types of firearms significantly.

              If high velocity semi automatic weapons with large capacity magazines were as difficult to obtain as machine guns, there would be a whole lot less deaths....maybe not this year or the next, but in time.

              Even a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
              "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. I just kiss. I don't even wait. You can do anything... Grab them by the [redacted]. You can do anything."
              -The President of the United States of America.

              Comment


              • Dumb logic, as usual, go after the source of the problem which is the person that is willing to commit the crime, simple.

                Originally posted by armor11 View Post
                Just because you can't stop them completely doesn't mean you can't make it a lot harder and avoid some casualties. Or reduce certain types of firearms significantly.

                If high velocity semi automatic weapons with large capacity magazines were as difficult to obtain as machine guns, there would be a whole lot less deaths....maybe not this year or the next, but in time.

                Even a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • I can understand and agree with tougher immigration standards and laws, it makes sense given the current threats out there. We have to protect ourselves.

                  But, until we address the main culprit of these mass killings then we've done nothing of any significance. We have to stop ignoring our biggest threats.
                  "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    The law is not trivial, he actually did purchase weapons from licensed dealers, and he has been interviewed by law enforcement and by media.
                    The Military Court is part of our system.
                    Someone in that court failed to follow protocol.
                    Not really. I already explained how hard it is to get court martial records.

                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    That failure place you and every LEO in danger every time you may have pulled him over. He had an established behavioral pattern, there is a good reason why there are systems in place to keep track of people like him.
                    You know this as well as anyone else. You are stuck on the idea that Constitutional rights can never be taken away.
                    Actually, I'm stick on the fact that your rights can only be suspended by due process in a court of law.

                    As to the danger to LEOs, that is absurd. We wouldn't get that sort of information on a routine traffic stop.

                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    Go to any jail, or prison and take note, the inmates have lost a lot of the rights the rest of us enjoy. Even after being released they forfeit many rights, according to the legal documents I posted which are established law, one of those rights is to legally purchase or possess firearms.
                    Only after they received due process. That is the point, as usual, you get hung up on.

                    And even felon will get his or her rights back after they are released.

                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    You may not like it, you may not agree with it. But that is the law.
                    It's not liking or agreeing, it's that I don't care. You've read one excerpt of a code I cannot enforce, and are imagining all sorts of consequences that do not exist.

                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    And get this, when he filled out those forms he lied, because if he did Mark any of those boxes and stated he was a convicted felon, or was dishonorably discharged the dealer would have refused to sell to him.
                    As I pointed out already, they system is honor-based. And odds are good the dealer would simply give him a new form, tell him to leave the boxes unchecked, and sell to him anyway. Or he could go to a garage sale, or a gun show, or the classified ads, or on-line. None of those require any forms.

                    Instead of worrying about the paperwork, why don't we just make murdering people against the law?

                    That'll stop the whole problem.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      Not really. I already explained how hard it is to get court martial records.



                      Actually, I'm stick on the fact that your rights can only be suspended by due process in a court of law.

                      As to the danger to LEOs, that is absurd. We wouldn't get that sort of information on a routine traffic stop.



                      Only after they received due process. That is the point, as usual, you get hung up on.

                      And even felon will get his or her rights back after they are released.



                      It's not liking or agreeing, it's that I don't care. You've read one excerpt of a code I cannot enforce, and are imagining all sorts of consequences that do not exist.



                      As I pointed out already, they system is honor-based. And odds are good the dealer would simply give him a new form, tell him to leave the boxes unchecked, and sell to him anyway. Or he could go to a garage sale, or a gun show, or the classified ads, or on-line. None of those require any forms.

                      Instead of worrying about the paperwork, why don't we just make murdering people against the law?

                      That'll stop the whole problem.
                      Murder is illegal but you point out the obvious. Nobody cares, when an officer of the law becomes callous to the fact that laws matter, well, what can one say.
                      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                        Murder is illegal but you point out the obvious. Nobody cares, when an officer of the law becomes callous to the fact that laws matter, well, what can one say.
                        Well....that law would have to be within one's territorial and subject matter jurisdiction. I don't care too much about federal law, because I don't have the opportunity to enforce it.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                          Well....that law would have to be within one's territorial and subject matter jurisdiction. I don't care too much about federal law, because I don't have the opportunity to enforce it.
                          That, UH, is it in a nutshell.

                          Federal law is meaningless to police officers in Texas the way incidents on the beach don't interest fish: we can't go there.

                          That's true of every state.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            I do not know if you can follow the development of my arguments or the general conversation we have in this thread. But I will remind you that my arguments are NOT different from the NRA's arguments which I POSTED a while ago!



                            So, apparently you believe that the NRA also believes in collective punishment.
                            I gotta ask, did you even watch that vid you are promoting?

                            It makes the same case I do; enforce existing laws instead of making up new ones.

                            I like that one, and it really does make good points, such as the fact that of 80,000 felony attempts to buy guns only 44 cases were prosecuted.

                            Nailing the guys who are breaking the law isn't collective punishment.... do you even know what those words mean?

                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            As for the shooter or the incident, feel free to use Molyneux as your source.
                            I most certainly will; he does not rely on ominous music, flashy graphics or any other extraneous BS, just facts & figures and common sense guided by decades of study.

                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            I can as easily record a video with my views about the shooter and the incident.
                            Then give it a try.
                            As is the case with so many other things, you may find that it is harder than it looks.

                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            Apparently, people have come to believe that just because someone says something in Youtube, it must be credible...
                            I hear this every time somebody has no argument against the points made, and they have to turn against the entire concept of stored video content being made available to the general public.
                            Sorry, but it is a new age, this sort of thing is here to stay.
                            It is the 21st century, get used to it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              That, UH, is it in a nutshell.

                              Federal law is meaningless to police officers in Texas the way incidents on the beach don't interest fish: we can't go there.

                              That's true of every state.
                              Federal law is not trivial to a gun dealer who can find himself in deep crap if he sells a weapon to a person who ends up doing these things.
                              You know that, Tac knows that.
                              The killer had applied for Texas lic. to be an armed private security agent, that application was denied.
                              Why?
                              Why did investigators question the gun dealer if the form means nothing to Texas cops?
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                                Federal law is not trivial to a gun dealer who can find himself in deep crap if he sells a weapon to a person who ends up doing these things.
                                You know that, Tac knows that.
                                The killer had applied for Texas lic. to be an armed private security agent, that application was denied.
                                Why?
                                Why did investigators question the gun dealer if the form means nothing to Texas cops?
                                Because they talked to everyone he met with. They're interviewing people he went to school with.

                                The Feds seldom enforce the laws you are quoting. Less than 100 in the last five years, and some of those were selling in bulk.

                                Why was he turned down for a security guard license? I don't know, that has nothing to do with law enforcement, but I expect it had to do with a bad conduct discharge. Or maybe not.

                                The guy was facing 26 counts of murder in a death penalty state, and you're worried because he lied on a form? Since this thread started a couple hundred people have lied on that form. Even more have gone around the form by purchasing from private individuals.

                                What difference does any of this make?
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                                Comment

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