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Who goes to jail as the result of the Trump-Russia collusion fraud?

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  • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
    Individual, group same thing. They are going after them, searching for crimes. Fact.
    Not a fact and devoid of logic. They aren't searching for crimes related to MS-13. They are targeting MS-13 for specific crimes for which its members are suspects.

    What specific crime(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate?
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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    • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      Not a fact and devoid of logic. They aren't searching for crimes related to MS-13. They are targeting MS-13 for specific crimes for which its members are suspects.

      What specific crime(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate?
      They were not. Once again you make an incorrect assumption that they have to have a specific crime to investigate. That has never been the case.
      “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
      “To talk of many things:
      Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
      Of cabbages—and kings—
      And why the sea is boiling hot—
      And whether pigs have wings.”
      ― Lewis Carroll

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
        Not a fact and devoid of logic. They aren't searching for crimes related to MS-13. They are targeting MS-13 for specific crimes for which its members are suspects.

        What specific crime(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate?
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_S..._investigation
        "The 2017 Special Counsel investigation is an ongoing investigation in the United States led by former FBI Director Robert Mueller as special counsel, initially to explore any coordination between Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign and the Russian government as part of the Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections and related matters. In August 2017, Mueller's investigation reportedly expanded to include several lobbying firms, including the Podesta Group."

        Or if you want, here is the original letter appointing Mueller.
        (a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed to serve as Special Counsel for the United States Department of Justice.
        (b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
        (i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
        (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
        (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
        (c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pamak View Post
          Rosenstein did nothing different than what happened with Bill Clinton. If you recall, the story with Monica came after the investigation against him took 2-3 different paths of investigating completely different and unrelated things.

          But you did not complain then about broad latitude, did you?
          Red herring fallacy.

          Furthermore, Starr never expanded the scope of his investigation without first obtaining approval from AG Janet Reno and/or the 3-judge panel overseeing his investigation.

          And, the independent counsel statute, under which Ken Starr, Lawrence Walsh, etc., were appointed was allowed to expire by the Republican controlled Congress in 1999.

          Regarding Mueller, I've already stated my opposition to his expansion of the investigation to include Democrat lobbyist Tony Podesta, brother of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. Mueller did not seek approval to expand the investigation. He did so under the latitude afforded by Rosenstein in the appointment order.
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
            Not a fact and devoid of logic. They aren't searching for crimes related to MS-13. They are targeting MS-13 for specific crimes for which its members are suspects.

            What specific crime(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate?


            There is no requirement to mention a specific crime for having an investigation. And this hold true in general.
            If for example, there is a case of a missing teenager which triggers an investigation, there is no need to specify if that investigation is about a murder or rape or accident or a run away. The possibility of a foul play is enough to start an investigation. And recall that Trump did not automatically become a suspect when this Russiangate investigation started. it is just that his actions, including the pressure to Comey led to Mueller's appointment!
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_S..._investigation
              "The 2017 Special Counsel investigation is an ongoing investigation in the United States led by former FBI Director Robert Mueller as special counsel, initially to explore any coordination between Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign and the Russian government as part of the Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections and related matters. In August 2017, Mueller's investigation reportedly expanded to include several lobbying firms, including the Podesta Group."

              Or if you want, here is the original letter appointing Mueller.
              (a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed to serve as Special Counsel for the United States Department of Justice.
              (b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
              (i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
              (ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
              (iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
              (c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.
              I posted the appointment letter previously. How does this contradict anything I posted?

              What specific crimes(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate? Specific crimes would have things like statute numbers. The statute number covering special counsels is not a specific crime to be investigated.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                There is no requirement to mention a specific crime for having an investigation. And this hold true in general.
                If for example, there is a case of a missing teenager which triggers an investigation, there is no need to specify if that investigation is about a murder or rape or accident or a run away.
                A missing person investigation is not a criminal investigation.
                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                  I posted the appointment letter previously. How does this contradict anything I posted?

                  What specific crimes(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate? Specific crimes would have things like statute numbers. The statute number covering special counsels is not a specific crime to be investigated.
                  He wasn't, as I've stated. Nor does he have to have been. You seem to be the one that thinks he as to be given such a tasking. He doesn't. We've never had such a requirement until you created it in order to Protect a failing President.
                  “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                  “To talk of many things:
                  Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                  Of cabbages—and kings—
                  And why the sea is boiling hot—
                  And whether pigs have wings.”
                  ― Lewis Carroll

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    Red herring fallacy.

                    Furthermore, Starr never expanded the scope of his investigation without first obtaining approval from AG Janet Reno and/or the 3-judge panel overseeing his investigation.

                    And, the independent counsel statute, under which Ken Starr, Lawrence Walsh, etc., were appointed was allowed to expire by the Republican controlled Congress in 1999.

                    Regarding Mueller, I've already stated my opposition to his expansion of the investigation to include Democrat lobbyist Tony Podesta, brother of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. Mueller did not seek approval to expand the investigation. He did so under the latitude afforded by Rosenstein in the appointment order.
                    Seems like another failure of a President Trump appointee. He has a history of that....
                    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                    “To talk of many things:
                    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                    Of cabbages—and kings—
                    And why the sea is boiling hot—
                    And whether pigs have wings.”
                    ― Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                      I imagine that is a hard argument to follow through on. It's not that you're wrong, but if one removes oneself from the equation and looks down on this from the outside, having him being able to name the man is a blow to the idea that he was an unknown and doing his own thing. Once Trump knows his name and has been seen to use it publicly - especially if it was him being "on the spot" and having to scramble to find the names - it undercuts the idea that he was a completely useless unknown.

                      And even if that argument is to be taken at face value and we assume that Trump just happened to know the name but had nothing else to do with him, it just looks bad when played out. Politics is never about what is true but what people believe is true, and having Trump on record using his name just doesn't play well when arguing that he was too unimportant to matter to anyone who did matter.

                      Though I have to again qualify that by pointing out that this doesn't prove that Trump is the super-guilty ultra-Russian spy people like to think he is. If I don't, people will get upset.
                      Trump's close advisors would have told him the names and brief bios. Papadopolous' communications were with Manafort and people below him.

                      I seriously doubt that Trump ever personally met most, if not all, of the 5 foreign policy "advisers." Almost all of Papadopolous' communications with the campaign were via emails.
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                        Seems like another failure of a President Trump appointee. He has a history of that....
                        Yep. Promoting Obama holdover Rosenstein was a YUGE mistake.
                        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          A missing person investigation is not a criminal investigation.

                          Then why do we have the FBI investigating such cases ?


                          http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20...asota-teenager

                          FBI joins investigation of missing Sarasota teenager
                          If the FBI suspects foul play, it will investigate the case. And it does not matter if this is about a missing teenager or the Russiangate or Benghazi.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                            Trump's close advisors would have told him the names and brief bios. Papadopolous' communications were with Manafort and people below him.

                            I seriously doubt that Trump ever personally met most, if not all, of the 5 foreign policy "advisers." Almost all of Papadopolous' communications with the campaign were via emails.
                            Yes, thank goodness....
                            “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                            “To talk of many things:
                            Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                            Of cabbages—and kings—
                            And why the sea is boiling hot—
                            And whether pigs have wings.”
                            ― Lewis Carroll

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                              I posted the appointment letter previously. How does this contradict anything I posted?

                              What specific crimes(s) was Mueller tasked to investigate? Specific crimes would have things like statute numbers. The statute number covering special counsels is not a specific crime to be investigated.
                              I think sections i, ii, and c are what you are looking for, as they define what the Special Counsel is looking into and the basis for his investigation.

                              Also, the last line (I didn't include it in my sample from the letter) references this section of Federal Regulations. They include parts like this:
                              § 600.4 Jurisdiction.
                              (a)Original jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall be established by the Attorney General. The Special Counsel will be provided with a specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated. The jurisdiction of a Special Counsel shall also include the authority to investigate and prosecute federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, the Special Counsel's investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; and to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted.

                              (b)Additional jurisdiction. If in the course of his or her investigation the Special Counsel concludes that additional jurisdiction beyond that specified in his or her original jurisdiction is necessary in order to fully investigate and resolve the matters assigned, or to investigate new matters that come to light in the course of his or her investigation, he or she shall consult with the Attorney General, who will determine whether to include the additional matters within the Special Counsel's jurisdiction or assign them elsewhere.

                              Essentially, it looks as though the Special Counsel is given a starting point (interference in the election) but is allowed to expand that jurisdiction (and to prosecute any other crimes that come up as a result of the investigation). And the wording of the letter suggest that Mueller is allowed to investigate anything that could be related to Russia, the election, and any crimes committed by those involved in either of these two situations.

                              But that's my layman's interpretation. I imagine there are more knowledgeable souls better informed about Federal law who can speak up.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                                He wasn't, as I've stated. Nor does he have to have been. You seem to be the one that thinks he as to be given such a tasking. He doesn't. We've never had such a requirement until you created it in order to Protect a failing President.
                                I never said that there was such a requirement... although there might be one. This is only the second time this particular statute has been used to appoint a special counsel.

                                I said that the investigation of specific people, in search of evidence of criminal activities, was antithetical to our system of justice and that Rosenstein should be fired for not strictly defining Mueller's scope of investigation.
                                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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