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  • #91
    Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
    And virtually all of those decedents used prescription meds ILLEGALLY. That's the caveat. Opioids are powerful, but they are useful -- when used correctly. Indeed, practitioners in other countries are claiming that the US' war on drugs is impacting their patients negatively, because they can't procure opioids for use on palliative patients, therefore they're dieing in far more pain than is necessary. On a Federal level, opioid regulation far outstrips firearms regulation, with the exception of fully-automatic weapons. Every scrip for codeine must be accompanied by a special DEA Schedule II or III form. The amount of paperwork generated by opioid prescriptions far-and-away exceeds that generated by firearms sales/transfers -- and yet we're in the midst of an opioid "crisis." So the question still stands: how effective has all that opioid regulation been?

    Yes, just like the mass shooters used guns illegally for purposes other than the original intent. In both cases though the level of access plays a role in the outcome. My point is that saying that there is a prescription drug "prohibition" is not correct.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #92
      Originally posted by pamak View Post
      Yes, just like the mass shooters used guns illegally for purposes other than the original intent. In both cases though the level of access plays a role in the outcome. My point is that saying that there is a prescription drug "prohibition" is not correct.
      So are you 1) admitting that current opioid regs are not effective; and 2) are you suggesting that, in order to end the current opioid crisis, that prescription of all opioids be prohibited?
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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      • #93
        Originally posted by pamak View Post
        Well, you did not get my point. I was talking about the lack of link between mass shootings in the US and drug gangs. So my point is that certain gun restrictions may actually be effective in the US because the usually "amateurs" mass shooters do not have the connections that gang members have to get what they want. Amateurs also do not have the experience to get what they want without getting caught in the process...


        I did get your point, but it didn't address anything I said.

        You attempted to correct things that I did not say.
        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
          So are you 1) admitting that current opioid regs are not effective; and 2) are you suggesting that, in order to end the current opioid crisis, that prescription of all opioids be prohibited?
          Of course, I agree that current opioid regs are not effective. The issue is much broader and until we also address the marketing practices, we will not be able to control the crisis. This is why I approve Session's first step which seems that it will target the pharma practices too. And I also want to see the AMA be more active in this crisis. Again, it is only recently that I see doctors challenging the current medical practices which prescribe opioid drugs too easily even when there are alternative methods to battle pain , often because they want to please a client in pain. Incidentally, there is a similar debate about limits in access to drugs and about patient rights to get what they want if they are in pain...
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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          • #95
            Originally posted by American87 View Post
            Yeah, the murder rate has been marginally going down since 1996, even though it peaked in 1999. Plus Australia never had a high homicide rate to begin with, at least by American standards.
            Actually, the UCR reporting policy on violent crimes changed in 1996.

            If you apply the old standards, there is no decline.

            What is interesting, is the national murder rate if you remove Chicago, LA, Baltimore, and Detroit from the count. That is four counties out of the entire nation.

            Interestingly, all four have gun laws which are far tougher than the average. Far tougher than major cities with much lower murder rates.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by pamak View Post
              Yes, just like the mass shooters used guns illegally for purposes other than the original intent. In both cases though the level of access plays a role in the outcome. My point is that saying that there is a prescription drug "prohibition" is not correct.
              There is however a ban of sorts. This is a case in point that just happened to my son-in-law. He until yesterday's operation had a herniated disc pushing against his spine. He was in Severe pain,and was prescribed a pain killer and muscle relaxer for this. The problem is that when he ran out and needed his prescription re-filled {due to the legal restrictions now in place he was only given a few days worth at a time without a new prescription} He was told not to drive until his operation. He was told that he PERSONALLY had to go pick up his written prescription and take it in person to the pharmacy. They would not call it in and not even his wife could go get it for him. That is absolutely ridiculous..................

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              • #97
                Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
                There is however a ban of sorts. This is a case in point that just happened to my son-in-law. He until yesterday's operation had a herniated disc pushing against his spine. He was in Severe pain,and was prescribed a pain killer and muscle relaxer for this. The problem is that when he ran out and needed his prescription re-filled {due to the legal restrictions now in place he was only given a few days worth at a time without a new prescription} He was told not to drive until his operation. He was told that he PERSONALLY had to go pick up his written prescription and take it in person to the pharmacy. They would not call it in and not even his wife could go get it for him. That is absolutely ridiculous..................
                You open a different conversation. By the way, I happen to also have the problem you mention (disk pushing against spine). Of course each such case is different. When I was informed about this, the doctor told me that I have to learn to live with this and that an operation in my case may just give a temp relief but it will not solve the problem permanently. When I researched the subject more, I also found something interesting. There was a medical study about the frequency of back operations in the UK and the US. The conclusion was that many times (and this is a general problem with the US medical field), the US medical system prefers aggressive (and profitable) intervention (such as operation). I am not saying that your son did not need an operation. I am saying that another root of the pain killer opioid issue comes from the fact that there are too many and wasteful procedures which are more about enriching medical professionals than anything else. By the way, Rush Limbaugh was one of the victims of opioid pain killers after his back surgery. And if you follow the NBA or even sports in general, you may have noticed that often athletes who undergo a back surgery return to the operation table after a few years. The latest example from professional sports is the coach of the Golden State Warriors who actually regretted the fact that he decided to get an operation for his back.

                And again, to make myself clear, I hope your son in law really needed the surgery and that he will fully recover and will not have his back bother him again. As for me, after a crisis I had about 15 years ago when I had to stay in bed for a week, I never had such a serious problem again. This does not mean that the problem has gone away. If I am forced to stand still for much time, I will feel it in my back. And some time even without doing anything, I may feel my back sore. Still, exercise, remaining in good shape and exercising abs (so that stronger muscles can take more load away from the spine) works for me. Now, if I feel my back, it will be a couple of times each month, and the pain is light. I do not even feel a need to get an aspirin.. .
                Anyway, I hope your son of law fully recovers, and I am fine with making things difficult to get a painkiller. The shorter the period of using them the better. And in fact, if I see a person willing to go over all the hoops to get his medication some time after the operation, it will be a red flag for me that the person starts getting addicted to the opioid...
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post
                  You open a different conversation. By the way, I happen to also have the problem you mention (disk pushing against spine). Of course each such case is different. When I was informed about this, the doctor told me that I have to learn to live with this and that an operation in my case may just give a temp relief but it will not solve the problem permanently. When I researched the subject more, I also found something interesting. There was a medical study about the frequency of back operations in the UK and the US. The conclusion was that many times (and this is a general problem with the US medical field), the US medical system prefers aggressive (and profitable) intervention (such as operation). I am not saying that your son did not need an operation. I am saying that another root of the pain killer opioid issue comes from the fact that there are too many and wasteful procedures which are more about enriching medical professionals than anything else. By the way, Rush Limbaugh was one of the victims of opioid pain killers after his back surgery. And if you follow the NBA or even sports in general, you may have noticed that often athletes who undergo a back surgery return to the operation table after a few years. The latest example from professional sports is the coach of the Golden State Warriors who actually regretted the fact that he decided to get an operation for his back.

                  And again, to make myself clear, I hope your son in law really needed the surgery and that he will fully recover and will not have his back bother him again. As for me, after a crisis I had about 15 years ago when I had to stay in bed for a week, I never had such a serious problem again. This does not mean that the problem has gone away. If I am forced to stand still for much time, I will feel it in my back. And some time even without doing anything, I may feel my back sore. Still, exercise, remaining in good shape and exercising abs (so that stronger muscles can take more load away from the spine) works for me. Now, if I feel my back, it will be a couple of times each month, and the pain is light. I do not even feel a need to get an aspirin.. .
                  Anyway, I hope your son of law fully recovers, and I am fine with making things difficult to get a painkiller. The shorter the period of using them the better. And in fact, if I see a person willing to go over all the hoops to get his medication some time after the operation, it will be a red flag for me that the person starts getting addicted to the opioid...
                  in short lets just say before the operation his pain was so severe he was crying......any movement was agony... I saw his MRI.......it looked like a finger had been stuck up against his spinal cord...........The doctor removed {cut off} about half of the protruding disc,and trimmed a small amount of the bone on his vertebrae............believe me,surgury was a last resort.........he has had this for over two months and should have had it done sooner...........I have had enough back issues myself.......probably one of the few people I know who had an orthopedic doctor "fire me" because I basically told him he was a quack and a scam artist.................

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
                    There is however a ban of sorts. This is a case in point that just happened to my son-in-law. He until yesterday's operation had a herniated disc pushing against his spine. He was in Severe pain,and was prescribed a pain killer and muscle relaxer for this. The problem is that when he ran out and needed his prescription re-filled {due to the legal restrictions now in place he was only given a few days worth at a time without a new prescription} He was told not to drive until his operation. He was told that he PERSONALLY had to go pick up his written prescription and take it in person to the pharmacy. They would not call it in and not even his wife could go get it for him. That is absolutely ridiculous..................
                    Was he getting getting Oxy?

                    They're one step from pulling it off the market entirely.

                    Until very recently it was the most stolen, most fraudulently-obtained medication in the country. The DEA really slammed the lid on distribution. And as the heroin crisis grows, expect to see it getting a lot worse.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      Was he getting getting Oxy?

                      They're one step from pulling it off the market entirely.

                      Until very recently it was the most stolen, most fraudulently-obtained medication in the country. The DEA really slammed the lid on distribution. And as the heroin crisis grows, expect to see it getting a lot worse.
                      yep. I'm almost positive it was oxy..........

                      Comment


                      • Some information about the history of aggressively promoting foxy by pharmas...


                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2622774/


                        excerpts


                        In much of its promotional campaign—in literature and audiotapes for physicians, brochures and videotapes for patients, and its “Partners Against Pain” Web site—Purdue claimed that the risk of addiction from OxyContin was extremely small.43–49

                        Purdue trained its sales representatives to carry the message that the risk of addiction was “less than one percent.”50(p99) The company cited studies by Porter and Jick,51 who found iatrogenic addiction in only 4 of 11 882 patients using opioids and by Perry and Heidrich,52 who found no addiction among 10 000 burn patients treated with opioids. Both of these studies, although shedding some light on the risk of addiction for acute pain, do not help establish the risk of iatrogenic addiction when opioids are used daily for a prolonged time in treating chronic pain. There are a number of studies, however, that demonstrate that in the treatment of chronic non–cancer-related pain with opioids, there is a high incidence of prescription drug abuse. Prescription drug abuse in a substantial minority of chronic-pain patients has been demonstrated in studies by Fishbain et al. (3%–18% of patients),53 Hoffman et al. (23%),54 Kouyanou et al. (12%),55 Chabal et al. (34%),56 Katz et al. (43%),57 Reid et al. (24%–31%),58 and Michna et al. (45%).59 A
                        As I have said, part of the colossal failure in controlling the opioid epidemic is because the laws focused mostly on street gangs and almost completely ignored the "respectable" gangs in the pharma and medical field...
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
                          yep. I'm almost positive it was oxy..........
                          Yeah, the Feds really have tightened the controls.

                          It sucks for the legit patients.

                          What we desperately need is a device that can detect and quantify pain.

                          It would help patients and eliminate fraud.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                          • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            Yeah, the Feds really have tightened the controls.

                            It sucks for the legit patients.

                            What we desperately need is a device that can detect and quantify pain.

                            It would help patients and eliminate fraud.
                            you would think there is something better than the 10 smiley faces........

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                            • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                              I was aware. I just find it interesting that the people who keep claiming that Australia's gun ban solved the problem and as a result it would work here.
                              Maybe it would work if we were an island too
                              I really try to stay out of this stuff but something here needs to be said as my country was brought into this. What we did wouldn't work in yours. We are two different peoples. We don't have (or want) the 2nd amendment. We see owning a gun as a privilege, not a right. You see it the other way around. And that's fine. I'm not trying to say one has a better system than the other, just that what works for us isn't going to work for you, and vice versa.

                              I think that comparing what worked for us as against what would work for you would be like me trying to compare Iceland and New Zealand. A lot of things in common, but a million miles apart on other things. Whatever you decide to come up with as a solution to these shootings needs to be done withing the framework of your system, beliefs, constitution etc, and looking at someone like us won't help or be helpful.

                              Now I'm going to expect some blowback here, but I would like it if anyone that is about to do that has a good read at what I said. Strawman comments won't be useful to anyone here.
                              Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                              That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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                              • 10 people shot from Saturday to Sunday

                                Shootings Saturday and Sunday wounded at least 10 people, according to Chicago police.
                                "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                                "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

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