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3 GOP Reps about to release conservative answer to the DREAM act

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    College? As I've pointed out about Arizona...

    There are about 28,000 people eligible for the DREAM executive order in Arizona. Of those, about 260 are attending one of the state universities, and another 750 or so are in a trade school or community college.

    I'd guess this is pretty much the case nationwide as well. Miniscule numbers of these illegals go past high school, and I'd bet a pretty big chunk don't finish high school.
    That's the idea - we'll consider the ones who are willing to try hard - the rest can go home.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    So? It also accounts for those who are 18 years+ and didn't go to college and likely never will. But, if I just average out the 28,000 as being a 15 year range group then there should be, on average about 2,500 to 3,000 (roughly 25 to 30%) of the 5 or so years of college age people within that group attending.
    But, that's not the case. They are grossly underrepresented, and that is my point.
    You on the other hand, dismiss the argument with nonsense.



    Actually, in Arizona, proof of citizenship or legal immigration status is required to attend any public or charter school K - 12. That is to say, illegal immigrants have to either lie on forms under penalty of law (eg., commit a crime) or not have their children attend school in the state.
    This was done not just for illegals, but because some school districts near the border were heavily populated with Mexican citizen's children who were brought over each day on tourist visas etc., like the Ajo school district.
    For example, that school district was sending buses to Lukeville 38 miles away to pick up legal Arizona resident students. But, many illegal Mexican students also boarded. Now Arizona requires all students boarding buses in this school district to show proof of residency in the state.

    This was, and is, a major drain on Arizona state education resources for some districts as they don't get property taxes on these students, and they may not be counted for funding due to their illegal status.

    Oh, and yes, high school graduates on the whole are inferior in education, and generally in skill levels to college graduates.
    I discount your calculation because you just tried to exaggerate. You started with numbers, supposedly to make a claim, and your claim was not that the number of eligible dreamers are underrepresented. Your initial claim was that these dreamers do not seem to have high rates of college attendance because out of the 28,000 only about 1,000 are in universities or trade colleges. But after I reminded you that you actually have to consider that many within the 28,000 are not even eligible to attend college because they are too young, you had to modify your calculations. So, now you end up with a completely different picture which tells us that among the 2500 and 3000 college-age people within the group of 28,000 people, we have about 1,000 who attend college. This sounds like a much better college attendance rate than the one you presented in your initial claim

    As for your new claim that the eligible dreamer population may be underrepresented, it is completely irrelevant to the issue of college attendance. This is because the ACTUAL number of dreamers who DO have the opportunity to attend college are NOT underrepresented. The people who are ELIGIBLE to become dreamers may be underrepresented but these people do not have the opportunity to get loans or financial help and attend colleges today. So, there is no reason to include the effect of their numbers in any estimation of college attendance rate for the ACTUAL dreamers!


    AS for the second part, I do not know what you are saying because nothing from what I read is related to my comment. I said that even if a demographic group has low college attendance rates, this should not be an issue to criticize that group unless you want to sound like one of these "elitist" democrats who look down on people without higher education. And the requirement for dreamers is to finish high school, not college. So, whatever you say is irrelevant to what I said...
    Last edited by pamak; 26 Sep 17, 02:24.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post
    My quote explained very clearly. It pointed out that you cannot simply compare the number of Dreamers who are college students in Arizona to the total number of Dreamers in Arizona because you do not take into account that the total number of dreamers in Arizona includes people who are younger than 18 years old who obviously cannot attend college.
    So? It also accounts for those who are 18 years+ and didn't go to college and likely never will. But, if I just average out the 28,000 as being a 15 year range group then there should be, on average about 2,500 to 3,000 (roughly 25 to 30%) of the 5 or so years of college age people within that group attending.
    But, that's not the case. They are grossly underrepresented, and that is my point.
    You on the other hand, dismiss the argument with nonsense.

    In addition, trying to criticize people who are simply high school graduates goes against the logic that there is nothing wrong with being just a high school graduate. Are you going now to argue that high school graduates are inferior in some way to college graduates? If anything,conservatives especially should be very careful with such implied claims...
    Actually, in Arizona, proof of citizenship or legal immigration status is required to attend any public or charter school K - 12. That is to say, illegal immigrants have to either lie on forms under penalty of law (eg., commit a crime) or not have their children attend school in the state.
    This was done not just for illegals, but because some school districts near the border were heavily populated with Mexican citizen's children who were brought over each day on tourist visas etc., like the Ajo school district.
    For example, that school district was sending buses to Lukeville 38 miles away to pick up legal Arizona resident students. But, many illegal Mexican students also boarded. Now Arizona requires all students boarding buses in this school district to show proof of residency in the state.

    This was, and is, a major drain on Arizona state education resources for some districts as they don't get property taxes on these students, and they may not be counted for funding due to their illegal status.

    Oh, and yes, high school graduates on the whole are inferior in education, and generally in skill levels to college graduates.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Taking and passing college classes does not make you better. I had 50 hours of credits when I dropped out to marry. I worked many minimum wage jobs after this. I went back to school and got a Vo-Tech degree in Industrial Electricity and then had a hard time finding Electrician jobs. I finally bit the bullet and went back to college and got two teaching degrees. I ended up dealing cards at an Indian Casino with a bunch of High School Graduates. Now I am disabled and retired.

    I don't think US Senators have a good grasp on what it takes to be a good citizen. They live in a different world from the normals.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Do explain how in detail, because right now, your word on this is worthless.
    My quote explained very clearly. It pointed out that you cannot simply compare the number of Dreamers who are college students in Arizona to the total number of Dreamers in Arizona because you do not take into account that the total number of dreamers in Arizona includes people who are younger than 18 years old who obviously cannot attend college. In addition, trying to criticize people who are simply high school graduates goes against the logic that there is nothing wrong with being just a high school graduate. Are you going now to argue that high school graduates are inferior in some way to college graduates? If anything,conservatives especially should be very careful with such implied claims...

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post
    Your logic fails since you do not consider the number of dreamers who are younger than 18 years old...
    And by the way, I thought that for many conservatives it is not necessary to go to college to become a good, productive citizen...
    Do explain how in detail, because right now, your word on this is worthless.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    The problem is we are allowing illegals to get residency. We have done this twice in the past thirty years that I can remember. This will make other people think they can get away with entering the country illegally. When do we say enough is enough?

    I am thinking we have left the barn door open and we are making paper to make us feel good about keeping it open.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • TacCovert4
    replied
    I can accept this as shown in the OP.

    1) It secures the back taxes, as well as background checks. This will make ineligible the criminal, the lazy, and the mooches.

    2) It places a requirement that these immigrants be both productive and credits to America. This is in line with immigration requirements that people have to prove to get into most 1st world countries (excepting refugees).

    3) It isn't amnesty, they will have to work for it, and prove that they deserve to be Americans. This in stark contrast to the amnesty concept of them just being made American by fiat without having to earn it.

    4) I want this coupled with a far more ruthless enforcement of immigration policy. Put a way in place to become legit, which is basically "Probation" for the crime of illegal entry with restitution for back taxes.....then ruthlessly go after both illegals who are trying to skirt around the system, the programs that give them money without requiring proper proof (food stamps, WIC, etc), and those who employ illegals.

    I'm pragmatic enough to know that deporting them all is impractical. Admission of guilt, restitution, probation, followed by allowing them to complete a modified immigration process properly, that's the best we can do. And once we get this in place, make sure there's a stark distinction between probationary immigrants and those still illegally in the country....and arrest and fine anyone employing an actual illegal knowingly and willfully.

    Leave a comment:


  • Persephone
    replied
    There's this misconception that Dreamers are from Mexico. There are currently 30,000 Dreamers from South Asia, of that 5,000 are Indians and 3,000 are Pakistanis. Majority of undocumented immigrants from India and Fiji seem to meet the DACA eligibility requirements.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    College? As I've pointed out about Arizona...

    There are about 28,000 people eligible for the DREAM executive order in Arizona. Of those, about 260 are attending one of the state universities, and another 750 or so are in a trade school or community college.

    I'd guess this is pretty much the case nationwide as well. Miniscule numbers of these illegals go past high school, and I'd bet a pretty big chunk don't finish high school.
    Your logic fails since you do not consider the number of dreamers who are younger than 18 years old...
    And by the way, I thought that for many conservatives it is not necessary to go to college to become a good, productive citizen...

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    College? As I've pointed out about Arizona...

    There are about 28,000 people eligible for the DREAM executive order in Arizona. Of those, about 260 are attending one of the state universities, and another 750 or so are in a trade school or community college.

    I'd guess this is pretty much the case nationwide as well. Miniscule numbers of these illegals go past high school, and I'd bet a pretty big chunk don't finish high school.

    Leave a comment:


  • Combat Engineer
    replied
    My bad. Three GOP Senators, not House of Reps.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Would they be required to list all social security numbers they were ever employed under? I think that would be important as identity theft and use of other's social security numbers are felonies...

    Leave a comment:


  • 3 GOP Reps about to release conservative answer to the DREAM act

    The DREAM act, legalize those covered under DACA that will end in about 5 months, was kicked around for about a decade. Now in response to President Trumps call for congressional action on the matter 3 conservative Representatives will submit a bill to the House. They released details about what it will have in it.

    http://thehill.com/latino/352284-gop...ct-alternative

    Sens. James Lankford (Okla.), Thom Tillis (N.C.) and Orrin Hatch (Utah) introduced the SUCCEED Act on Monday, pitching it as an alternative to the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act, or DREAM Act, backed by Democrats.

    "The DREAM Act has been floated around for a decade," Lankford told reporters. "We don't believe the DREAM Act is a conservative solution to how to be able to resolve this, but we also don't want to leave this question unanswered."
    The main points:

    for undocumented immigrants who were brought into the United States before mid-2012 and before the age of 16.
    To initially be eligible under the legislation, an individual would have to obtain a high school diploma, undergo a background check, submit data to the Department of Homeland Security and pay any back taxes.

    That would allow an undocumented immigrant to apply for "conditional permanent residence," which would need to be renewed after five years. During that time they would need to be continuously employed, earn a college degree or serve in the military for at least three years.

    After maintaining the conditional status for 10 years and demonstrating they "are a productive, law-abiding member of society," people in the program could apply for green cards. After five additional years, they would be able to apply for citizenship.
    Not bad really. I'd say drop the college requirement and substitute a 2 year course of study at a Community college or trade school.

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