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  • #91
    Originally posted by pamak View Post
    Your words are not that different from what Hamas says. They do not want to negotiate with people who want to steal the Palestinian land. And similar words have been used by the Egyptians and the Israelis in the past.
    The truth is that all of them have shown that they can very well negotiate. It was not that there was less animosity between the Egyptians and the Israelis after the Yom Kippur War, or that there were not Arab terrorists who wanted to kill their Jewish opponents and Israeli settlers who wanted to confiscate the Arab land. There were other factor, such as, a sense of humility on both sides (as a result of their exposed vulnerabilities during the war) and a more deliberate, persistent and fair US leadership under the "leftist" and "pro-Palestinian" Carter.

    Of course, such conditions can never exist in an environment where Israelis feel they have the power to do whatever they want and still get billions of dollars as an aid from the US government. And of course, when the US "referee" acts in such a way, it makes it even more difficult for any moderate Arab negotiator to convince his community that there can be meaningful negotiations!
    I have a similar outlook on the situation as do you.
    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
    Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

    George S Patton

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ljadw View Post
      Sigh,sigh : the provincialism, ignorance and unwillingness to face reality is appalling .

      Ignorance and provincialism : moderate does not exist in the Muslim world . There is NO moderate Islam (dixit the dictator of Turkey )thus there can be no moderate Muslims . Moderate is a western concept that has no place outside the west .

      Unwillingness to face reality : Muslims are not people as we. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet (dixit Kipling : a liberal ).

      The one world idea or globalisation is a bad idea that has costed millions of lives . The communists failed to export their ideology, US liberal democracy also will fail : the war in Iraq and the import of millions of non Americans are striking examples . The same for the advent of Putin .

      WWI alreadestroyed the one world idea : German workers fought against French workers and the Austrian Rothschilds fought against the British Rothschilds .
      Honestly I find if your views here are mainstream that many people would turn against Judaism. Imagine if I posted about how Catholics have always been discriminated against, in response many would say such a view is akin to whining or of an annoying nature. Its like a Bible or Quran thumper preaching nonstop about how his religion is the best, such a view will annoy people and more people will turn against Christianity or Islam.

      Imagine a Muslim guy posting itt saying that Christians are not human or that Christians are subhuman .. To each their own of course but why would you go all out here ie your criticism of Muslims in general, because everyone else itt is being critical of gov forces not of entire blocks of people.
      Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 19 Sep 17, 21:10.
      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

      George S Patton

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
        Just to digress slightly, can I ask AG's jewish members how they feel about muslim immigration into the USA and Europe, bearing in mind muslims don't like jews and christians?
        If I was jewish I'd have complained like heck about it but as far as I can tell the US and European jewish communities took it lying down.
        Obama was letting in 100,000 immigrants a year, so if only 1 percent of them were extremists, that's 1000 potential terrorists a year setting foot on American soil.
        (In fact I'm surprised most non-jewish US/Euro people took it lying down too)
        How do you all feel about Trump's stronger anti-immigration stance?

        How I feel is that such a view would turn folks against Judaism^ that is to say if all Jewish folks agreed with for example the views presented by you above or Iljadw earlier itt.

        If Iljadw was Muslim and referred to Hindus as subhumans then some # of people in the world would turn against Islam.

        My take,


        I am a Catholic, I respect all religions and would support helping other people regardless of their skin color or religion.
        Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
        Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

        George S Patton

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by pamak View Post
          This is not about globalization. And as I explained before, the Palestinian issue is much more complex to be described as an example of Islamism. You did not even know Hamas before 1987 when it was founded. Arafat was NOT an Islamist or a person who believed in Sharia. He was a secular Palestinian. But if you really believe what you say then you should be worried with the Israeli plans of creating a big Israeli State in which the Muslims may very well be the majority of the population...
          In addition in the 1980s one could say Palestinian Christians led the charge, Christians such as Edward Said,

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said
          Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
          Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

          George S Patton

          Comment


          • #95
            The idea that Muslims are just extremists who want to kill all the Jews because of some religious animosity is a gross simplification of the realities in the Middle East. In reality extremists Islamists and extremists Israeli settlers have no problem of accepting other believers as long as this takes place in a Islamic (for the former) or Jewish (for the latter) state. This shows that the root of the problem is competing nationalistic aspirations and not competing religious ideologies. Of course, religion is often used to legitimize such national aspirations and we see it in both sides when people interpreter the Old Testament or the Koran in a way that supports such nationalistic visions. But these nationalistic visions are shared with SECULAR Arabs and Jews who do not need any religious justification to promote their policies...

            Here are two links: the first describes the case of the Jewish minority in Iran which somehow has managed to avoid extermination and has certain rights, political representatives and a voice could even criticize Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial.

            The second describes the view Of Jewish-Americans who came from Iran. Notice also that the article was written at a time when Israel was fighting the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon. And still, the view that these Jewish-Americans hold about the Iranian country and its culture is much more moderate (or "complex" to use Fox's term) compared to the view of the Belgian ljadw.

            http://www.npr.org/sections/parallel...e-plan-to-stay

            http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/08...st-crisis.html
            Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 22:04.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by pamak View Post
              This is not about globalization. And as I explained before, the Palestinian issue is much more complex to be described as an example of Islamism. You did not even know Hamas before 1987 when it was founded. Arafat was NOT an Islamist or a person who believed in Sharia. He was a secular Palestinian. But if you really believe what you say then you should be worried with the Israeli plans of creating a big Israeli State in which the Muslims may very well be the majority of the population...
              Uri Avnery, founder of the Israeli Grish Shalom movement, said that Arafat was a PRACTISING Sunni Muslim .

              In 1968, Arafat said would prevent immigration and promote emigration and help to destroy Israel .

              Arafat was also a thief who stole $ hundreds of millions from Western gifts who were destined for the Palestinians .

              For the rest, you continue to search desperatedly for Muslims who are as the Western liberals : such Muslims do not exist .

              It is about globalization : you want them to be as you : they are not as you . They will never be as you .The neocons and the liberals have wasted $
              billions to transform the Muslims in good Democratic Americans . They have failed . They will never succeed .

              Muslims do not accept the presence of non Muslims : they have expulsed the Jews from the ME, they are busy with expulsing the christians from the ME . Where they are living in Europe, they are expulsing the non Muslims .

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                Uri Avnery, founder of the Israeli Grish Shalom movement, said that Arafat was a PRACTISING Sunni Muslim .

                In 1968, Arafat said would prevent immigration and promote emigration and help to destroy Israel .

                Arafat was also a thief who stole $ hundreds of millions from Western gifts who were destined for the Palestinians .

                For the rest, you continue to search desperatedly for Muslims who are as the Western liberals : such Muslims do not exist .

                It is about globalization : you want them to be as you : they are not as you . They will never be as you .The neocons and the liberals have wasted $
                billions to transform the Muslims in good Democratic Americans . They have failed . They will never succeed .

                Muslims do not accept the presence of non Muslims : they have expulsed the Jews from the ME, they are busy with expulsing the christians from the ME . Where they are living in Europe, they are expulsing the non Muslims .
                He is wrong. Arafat was a secular.. Implying that someone who is secular must also be an atheist or not practicing religion in his PERSONAL life is wrong!

                In 1968 Israel also did not even recognize the right of a Palestinian State to exist.. To them, there was no such thing as being "Palestinian." They were just Jordanians or Egyptians living in Palestine and they did not have any right to claim any land on behalf of a Palestine State. At least today, both sides include people who are not afraid to talk in public about a two-state solution. This IS progress. In 1968, this was inconceivable!

                Arafat was definitely a typical corrupt Arab leader and a thief. We can agree on this

                I do not search desperately for Muslims who are as the western liberals because I do not think that such a similarity is necessary to justify the right they have for self-determination. Nor do I have any desire to see an imbalance in demographics based on pro-immigration politics. But unlike you, I am consistent with my beliefs. So, I also do not want to see demographic distortions in the West Bank or Israel based on stupid and short-sighted pro-settlement policies. In addition, I do not agree with the tactic of opposing massive immigration by demonizing Muslims in general. First, it is wrong, and this is why I posted the links with the views of Iranian Jews and American Iranian Jews who for some reason seem to appreciate the Iranian culture despite the fact of the strong Muslim presence in that culture. Second, it is not necessary to become a bigot in order to oppose massive immigration. And third, such a poisonous anti-Muslim rhetoric undermines the status of many of our fellow citizens who are Muslims and can even jeopardize their legal rights!

                And as for your claims about the Jewish expulsions from the ME, I will disagree. After the creation of Israel, the Jews left many countries from all over the world to go and live in Israel. The reduction of the Jewish presence in many parts of the world had to do with the opportunity that was offered to fulfill national aspirations by living in a Jewish land. I was not a result of pogroms. The same thing happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union when hundreds of thousands of Soviet Jews could choose their country and and ended-up in Israel. This does not mean that there was no antisemitism in the ME (or in the Soviet Union). Obviously there was, and the ME wars or the issue of the Palestinian refugees who were really forced to abandon their property when they were denied the right to return to their homes after the end of the war made things worse and created a lot of tension.
                Last edited by pamak; 20 Sep 17, 04:06.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post
                  What exactly makes you think that the expansions are in areas that the Palestinians could not or should not get? Not to mention the places in which Palestinians ARE already there , and they are forced to leave

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_...inian_conflict


                  Here is one recent case which made it to the news

                  August 29, 2017

                  http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/29/middle...ols/index.html



                  and here is another

                  February 7, 2017

                  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...206-story.html



                  As for the thing about personal responsibility for the actions of the government, does it justify collective punishment? And if this is the case, who is holding the Jews collectively accountable for the actions? We certainly do not do it by giving them billions...
                  Yes or what the point of having a country and voting. Just like Germans were guilty in WW2 Japan does not mean you kill em all but the citizens have to live with the consequences there govt caused them.

                  Especially if you start a war and lose. Which is the case in Palestine.

                  ignore the current articles and look at the older stuff. The current articles are just in reaction to the Palestians failure to take the good deal they had.

                  you call it what was fed to us in the US but bottom line if the Palestians had taken that deal they would have a better life now. And settlements would not be being built in those areas they are complaining about now.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by craven View Post
                    Yes or what the point of having a country and voting. Just like Germans were guilty in WW2 Japan does not mean you kill em all but the citizens have to live with the consequences there govt caused them.

                    Especially if you start a war and lose. Which is the case in Palestine.

                    ignore the current articles and look at the older stuff. The current articles are just in reaction to the Palestians failure to take the good deal they had.

                    you call it what was fed to us in the US but bottom line if the Palestians had taken that deal they would have a better life now. And settlements would not be being built in those areas they are complaining about now.

                    I actually showed you the older stuff. In particular I showed you some interesting demographics and land control data from right before the creation of Israel.

                    And I certainly disagree with the argument that military power can always justify morally the spoils of war. Not to mention that the West Bank an Gaza were not the spoils of the 1948 war of Israel's indipendence. They were the spoils of the 1967 war in which Israel attacked Egyptians and Jordanians for reasons related to Egyptian and Jordanian actions. So, if you want to talk in such terms to avoid the moral implications of an occupation, ,then I will say that the Palestinians did not start any war. They did not start it in 1948, and they certainly did did not start it in 1967! In addition, the Palestinians have ALREADY lost the part of the land which today belongs to Israel , and even the people who support the Palestinian cause do not argue that Israel should not keep the territorial "spoils of war" within the 1967 borders.

                    I will also disagree with the idea that we have to ignore the "current articles" and focus on the past. This may be convenient for the settlers and their supporters but there is no legal or moral justification for such focus. Even the Germans saw their country united, and the reason this happened was because things change over time and current or future generations cannot be held accountable for the sins of their great grandfathers during or shortly after wwii.

                    Bottom line was that if the Palestinians had taken the deal, they would have a state that was not self-sufficient. This was enough of a justification to reject the deal! My take on this is that no one should impose time limits on people who struggle to build an independent country. After all, it took centuries for the Greeks and many European nations to gain independence. Such "natural" rights are timeless, and arguments that we should focus in the past and forget the current (and future) "land-grab" describe clear pro-settlement feelings which have no legal or moral justification ..
                    Last edited by pamak; 20 Sep 17, 13:32.
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      He is wrong. Arafat was a secular.. Implying that someone who is secular must also be an atheist or not practicing religion in his PERSONAL life is wrong!

                      In 1968 Israel also did not even recognize the right of a Palestinian State to exist.. To them, there was no such thing as being "Palestinian." They were just Jordanians or Egyptians living in Palestine and they did not have any right to claim any land on behalf of a Palestine State. At least today, both sides include people who are not afraid to talk in public about a two-state solution. This IS progress. In 1968, this was inconceivable!

                      Arafat was definitely a typical corrupt Arab leader and a thief. We can agree on this

                      I do not search desperately for Muslims who are as the western liberals because I do not think that such a similarity is necessary to justify the right they have for self-determination. Nor do I have any desire to see an imbalance in demographics based on pro-immigration politics. But unlike you, I am consistent with my beliefs. So, I also do not want to see demographic distortions in the West Bank or Israel based on stupid and short-sighted pro-settlement policies. In addition, I do not agree with the tactic of opposing massive immigration by demonizing Muslims in general. First, it is wrong, and this is why I posted the links with the views of Iranian Jews and American Iranian Jews who for some reason seem to appreciate the Iranian culture despite the fact of the strong Muslim presence in that culture. Second, it is not necessary to become a bigot in order to oppose massive immigration. And third, such a poisonous anti-Muslim rhetoric undermines the status of many of our fellow citizens who are Muslims and can even jeopardize their legal rights!

                      And as for your claims about the Jewish expulsions from the ME, I will disagree. After the creation of Israel, the Jews left many countries from all over the world to go and live in Israel. The reduction of the Jewish presence in many parts of the world had to do with the opportunity that was offered to fulfill national aspirations by living in a Jewish land. I was not a result of pogroms. The same thing happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union when hundreds of thousands of Soviet Jews could choose their country and and ended-up in Israel. This does not mean that there was no antisemitism in the ME (or in the Soviet Union). Obviously there was, and the ME wars or the issue of the Palestinian refugees who were really forced to abandon their property when they were denied the right to return to their homes after the end of the war made things worse and created a lot of tension.
                      The Muslims jubilated on 9/11 and jubilated when Irma was hurting Florida . Thus your fellow citizens

                      The Muslims expelled the Jews from the ME and North Africa,giving them the choice between 'le cercueil ou la valise ' : the coffin or the suitcase .

                      OTOH,there are now more Palestinians living in Israel than before 1948 ,proving that they were good treated by the Israelis ,while for the average muslim there is only one good Jew : a dead one .

                      It is not so that the Russian Jews went to Israel : only the half of them went to Israel, the others were going to the US and to Germany .

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                        I actually showed you the older stuff. In particular I showed you some interesting demographics and land control data from right before the creation of Israel.

                        And I certainly disagree with the argument that military power can always justify morally the spoils of war. Not to mention that the West Bank an Gaza were not the spoils of the 1948 war of Israel's indipendence. They were the spoils of the 1967 war in which Israel attacked Egyptians and Jordanians for reasons related to Egyptian and Jordanian actions. So, if you want to talk in such terms to avoid the moral implications of an occupation, ,then I will say that the Palestinians did not start any war. They did not start it in 1948 and they did did not start it in 1968! In addition, the Palestinias have ALREADY lost the part of the land which is today Israel's, and to my knowledge even the people who support the Palestinians agree about the fact that Israel should keep the territory within the 1967 borders.

                        I will also disagree with the idea that we have to ignore the "current articles" and focus on the past. This may be convenient for the settlers and their supporters but there is no legal or moral justification for such focus. Even the Germans saw their country united, and the reason this happened was because things change over time and current or future generations cannot be held accountable for the sins of their great grandfathers during or shortly after wwii.

                        Bottom line was that if the Palestinians had taken the deal, they would have a state that was not self-sufficient. This was enough of a justification to reject the deal! My take on this is that no one should impose time limits on people who struggle to build an independent country. After all, it took centuries for the Greeks and many European nations to gain independence. Such "natural" rights are timeless, and arguments that we should focus in the past and forget the current (and future) "land-grab" describe clear pro-settlement feelings which have no legal or moral justification ..
                        Jordan was not neutral in 1969 :it took the side of Egypt, thus, it was its own fault if it lost some territory; which was not its territory : in 1948 Jordan annexed the Palestinial territories west of the Jordan river . No one protested .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          The Muslims jubilated on 9/11 and jubilated when Irma was hurting Florida . Thus your fellow citizens

                          The Muslims expelled the Jews from the ME and North Africa,giving them the choice between 'le cercueil ou la valise ' : the coffin or the suitcase .

                          OTOH,there are now more Palestinians living in Israel than before 1948 ,proving that they were good treated by the Israelis ,while for the average muslim there is only one good Jew : a dead one .

                          It is not so that the Russian Jews went to Israel : only the half of them went to Israel, the others were going to the US and to Germany .
                          The Muslims in the ME did not expel the Jews. I told you why they left, and I gave you a similar case with the movement of the Jews from the Soviet Union to Israel. And yes, some Jews decided to go to other countries too. That was also the case with the Jews in ME. Many went to Israel and others went to other countries for economic reasons, especially since the Arab countries experienced many economic difficulties after WWII. The same thing happened with Iran. Economic sanctions and Iran's rival with the wealthiest nation in the world had severe economic consequences and it was THEN when many Jews decided to leave. There are also additional pieces of evidence which show that the movement of Jews from the ME was not a result of a massive pogroms. I happen to be Greek, so I know that there was a big Greek community in Egypt which had a centuries-long presence there going back to at least the Hellenistic period. And still, Nasser's economic policies convinced many Greeks to leave Egypt. Meanwhile, Greece and Egypt had very good relations.
                          As for the Palestinians and the increase of their population in Israel, it is a result of the growth of the local population, of a good economy, of a continuing Israeli expansion and of the reluctance of other Arab states to accept more Palestinian immigrants from Israel.

                          As for those who celebrated, it was not "the Muslims." It was "some Muslims." There are also "some blacks" who would not hesitate to dance over my dead body. I am not going to use divisive language based on such cases. Most people do not deserve such contempt. Plus, such language undermines society itself! In addition, I can talk about other expressions of deep hate coming from the more refined westerners in the US. Perhaps you do not dance when you see Palestinian civilians dead on your TV screen, but your words reveal an equally disturbing hate.
                          Last edited by pamak; 20 Sep 17, 15:15.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            Jordan was not neutral in 1969 :it took the side of Egypt, thus, it was its own fault if it lost some territory; which was not its territory : in 1948 Jordan annexed the Palestinial territories west of the Jordan river . No one protested .
                            My point is that we talk about the Palestinian actions and not the Egyptian or the Jordanian ones for which the Palestinians bear no responsibility. And yes, when you are denied entrance back to your home in Israel and you are a refugee in Egypt or Jordan, you are not going to protest whatever your allies do. Still, it was VERY clear that the Palestinians were interested in having a PALESTINIAN state, and did not see themselves as being part of the Egyptian or Jordanian ones. The partition maps and proposals showed clearly this distinction among Palestinians, Egyptians and Jordanians. You can even see the map that was posted earlier and notice the presence of international boundaries among Egypt, Jordan and the proposed new Arab state in Palestine.
                            Last edited by pamak; 20 Sep 17, 14:23.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • There were in 1945 1 million Jews in the Arab countries (Palestine not included) ,now 4000.

                              In 1947-48 they were persecuted, their properties were confiscated ,dozens were murdered (in Yemen almost 100),there was a succession of Kristallnachten .

                              There were 840000 refugees between 1948-1972, 70 % went to Israel, the others mainly to Europe and NA .

                              The Palestine refugees lost assets of some $4.6 billion (2012 prices), the Jewish refugees assets of some $ 6.7 billion .

                              The anti-Semitic propaganda is always whining about the Palestine refugees,while remaining silent about the Jewish refugees .

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                                My point is that we talk about the Palestinian actions and not the Egyptian or the Jordanian ones for which the Palestinians bear no responsibility. And yes, when you are denied entrance back to your home in Israel and you are a refugee in Egypt or Jordan, you are not going to protest whatever your allies do. Still, it was VERY clear that the Palestinians were interested in having a PALESTINIAN state, and did not see themselves as being part of the Egyptian or Jordanian ones. The partition maps and proposals showed clearly this distinction among Palestinians, Egyptians and Jordanians. You can even see the map that was posted earlier and notice the presence of international boundaries among Egypt, Jordan and the proposed new Arab state in Palestine.
                                The fact is that in 1948 Jordan occupied a big part of Palestine and thus prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state .

                                The fact is also that in 1967 Jordan joined the anti-Israel coalition and can thus not whine when it lost the West Bank .

                                The fact is also that the Palestinians are still today refusing to admit the legalityof the Israelian state and that it is their own fault if they lost the West Bank .

                                Comment

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