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  • #76
    There are no moderate Muslims : the Muslims want to destroy Israel and exterminate all the Jews on the world, while Israel does not want to exterminate the Palestinians and while Israel accepts the existence of a Palestinian state .

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by craven View Post
      See your seeing the problem completely wrong The US used all of it leverage to get that deal for the Palestians and it was as good of plan as they were ever going to get and they said no. You speak of time but Israel has not forgotten that the Palestians said no. They have not forgotten when they unilaterally pulled out of Gaza that Hamas took it over and started shooting rockets. So for Israel its only been 10 years since they tried to move ahead but the Palestians just do not want it.


      Their failure to say yes to a good deal is why we are where we are now. Granted Arfat might of not survived the Palestians probally would have a be life now.
      The coverage of this plan in the US was (and is) very biased for many reasons, such as, the absence of a powerful Arab community and lobby in the US, the presence of a powerful Jewish community and lobby (including powerful presence in the press) , the presence of a powerful Evangelical ideology which believes in the literal interpretations of the Old Testament ( "promised land"), the cultural proximity of Judeo-Christian and secular beliefs, and, yes, even the common historical background of immigration at the expense of the native population . Yes, there were (and are ) some people (including Jewish journalists in mainstream media) who voice different opinions, but essentially they have to go against much of the progressive AND conservative press, so their voice often disappears.


      As for your comments, let's not confuse thing by talking about the withdrawal from Gaza. That was AFTER the failure of the negotiations we are talking about.
      And the decision to withdraw from Gaza was not a gesture of "peace offer." It was a decision to minimize the burden of defending a small Jewish community inside the devil's cauldron. And at the same time there was this withdrawal from Gaza, there was an expansion in the West Bank. So, basically, it is more accurately to talk about a shift of settlements for economic and military reasons instead of talking about a genuine withdrawal pr peace offer.


      As for your opinion about the previous Oslo agreements, I will disagree. The Israelis wanted to start the process of negotiations by having the Palestinian moderates making concrete compromises and tough decisions without getting in return concrete details about the Israeli compromises and without getting meaningful benefits. So, there was no blueprint about any withdrawal of settlers, no blueprint about any return of Palestinian refugees and no blueprint about East Jerusalem.
      On the other hand, the Palestinians were supposed to start the negotiations by accepting the Israeli control of Area C, which was like 75% of the West Bank and included all of the Israeli settlements most of the West Bank's resources, including the Jordan valley and the Dead Sea. The moderate Palestinians had to adopt a zero-tolerance policy against their extremists while of course Israel did not need to adopt such zero-tolerance policies against its extremists. The case of the Israeli settlements could "perhaps" lead to some vague compromises in the future.

      And, what was the immediate "prize" for the Palestinian concessions?
      It was the fact that they could have a recognized by Israel "Palestinian Authority" to administer about 160 separate patches of territories which they couldn't even form a continuous territory, and which lacked the natural resources to be really self-sufficient. Meanwhile, any terrorist act from any Hamas lunatic that would not trigger a civil war among the moderates and Hamas could give the Israelis an opportunity to back off from any negotiations by claiming that moderate Palestinians were not willing to adopt a "zero-tolerance" policy against terrorism.
      Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 10:37.
      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

      Comment


      • #78
        No powerful Arab lobby in the US ?

        Never heard of Ellison and the CAIR?

        Never heard of Stormfront, of Wapo, the NYT ..?
        Last edited by ljadw; 19 Sep 17, 10:03.

        Comment


        • #79
          Muslims were celebrating the Irma destructions in Florida .

          A Montreal imam (Al-Ghitawi) asked Allah to destroy the Jews.

          In 2015 Hajj Saeed (imam from Copenhagen ) said that the right way was to wage war on the Jews .

          This year, a Lebanese imam (Mundhir Abdallah) was preaching in Denmark to murder the Jews .

          Every day imams overall on the world are calling to exterminate the Jews .

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            No powerful Arab lobby in the US ?

            Never heard of Ellison and the CAIR?

            Never heard of Stormfront, of Wapo, the NYT ..?
            What are you talking about?

            Here is a list of Jewish journalists...

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...an_journalists

            Feel free to compare it with the Arab list...

            And to avoid misunderstandings, I do not imply that the Jews "control the world" or the US politics. But this does not mean that every lobby has the same influence on the US public opinion. Cultural similarities make it much easier to support Israel. Also, a common ethnic background with the Israelis will certainly affect the judgement of many Jewish-American journalists .
            Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 10:32.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • #81
              Surprised this thread got so many replies considering all the other news. But it shows how Israel/Palestine has somehow someway gripped many non Jews and non Muslims into following the subject.

              What interests me in the topic is freedom and democracy, neither is practiced by the west bank gov, hamas or the Israeli gov. Both sides have leaders whom wear their yamakas and thobes and who are enforcing intolerant and unjust laws which go against Judaism and Islam. Many of the religious people in Israel and Palestine give a bad name to humanity. To consider that America is a success story of all different types of looking people and religions shows that the masses of Israel Palestine are being controlled by a minority of supremacists. And its generally the working man getting the shaft in Israel/Palestine.
              Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
              Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

              George S Patton

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                Also, a common ethnic background with the Israelis will certainly affect the judgement of many Jewish-American journalists .
                Unproved assumption .

                "certainly " needs proofs to be reliable .

                Besides : "Jewish-American " does not exist : it is an invention from the anti-semites in the USA .

                Jewish-Americans have no Ethnic background with the Israelis ;Jewish-Americans are no ethny .
                Last edited by ljadw; 19 Sep 17, 11:10.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  Unproved assumption .

                  "certainly " needs proofs to be reliable .

                  Says the person who said "There are no moderate Muslims."

                  Not to mention that the PLO was never a "Muslim" organization. Such quotes show that you oversimplify the Palestinian issue to one of "Muslim terrorism" which is wrong. In fact, as I said in a previous post, the first terrorist actions came from the secular Palestinians and for reasons which were similar to those which motivated the allies when they decided to target enemy civilians in wwii. They wanted to accomplish their political objectives without suffering enormous casualties as a result of conventional fights against the enemy's military forces.
                  Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 11:48.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by pamak View Post
                    The coverage of this plan in the US was (and is) very biased for many reasons, such as, the absence of a powerful Arab community and lobby in the US, the presence of a powerful Jewish community and lobby (including powerful presence in the press) , the presence of a powerful Evangelical ideology which believes in the literal interpretations of the Old Testament ( "promised land"), the cultural proximity of Judeo-Christian and secular beliefs, and, yes, even the common historical background of immigration at the expense of the native population . Yes, there were (and are ) some people (including Jewish journalists in mainstream media) who voice different opinions, but essentially they have to go against much of the progressive AND conservative press, so their voice often disappears.


                    As for your comments, let's not confuse thing by talking about the withdrawal from Gaza. That was AFTER the failure of the negotiations we are talking about.
                    And the decision to withdraw from Gaza was not a gesture of "peace offer." It was a decision to minimize the burden of defending a small Jewish community inside the devil's cauldron. And at the same time there was this withdrawal from Gaza, there was an expansion in the West Bank. So, basically, it is more accurately to talk about a shift of settlements for economic and military reasons instead of talking about a genuine withdrawal pr peace offer.


                    As for your opinion about the previous Oslo agreements, I will disagree. The Israelis wanted to start the process of negotiations by having the Palestinian moderates making concrete compromises and tough decisions without getting in return concrete details about the Israeli compromises and without getting meaningful benefits. So, there was no blueprint about any withdrawal of settlers, no blueprint about any return of Palestinian refugees and no blueprint about East Jerusalem.
                    On the other hand, the Palestinians were supposed to start the negotiations by accepting the Israeli control of Area C, which was like 75% of the West Bank and included all of the Israeli settlements most of the West Bank's resources, including the Jordan valley and the Dead Sea. The moderate Palestinians had to adopt a zero-tolerance policy against their extremists while of course Israel did not need to adopt such zero-tolerance policies against its extremists. The case of the Israeli settlements could "perhaps" lead to some vague compromises in the future.

                    And, what was the immediate "prize" for the Palestinian concessions?
                    It was the fact that they could have a recognized by Israel "Palestinian Authority" to administer about 160 separate patches of territories which they couldn't even form a continuous territory, and which lacked the natural resources to be really self-sufficient. Meanwhile, any terrorist act from any Hamas lunatic that would not trigger a civil war among the moderates and Hamas could give the Israelis an opportunity to back off from any negotiations by claiming that moderate Palestinians were not willing to adopt a "zero-tolerance" policy against terrorism.
                    But most of those expansion are in areas that the Palestians are not going to get in the first place.

                    you forget the Palestians elected there govt hence they are responsible for whatever Hamas does Just like we are responsible for whatever our govt does.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      Says the person who said "There are no moderate Muslims."
                      Sigh,sigh : the provincialism, ignorance and unwillingness to face reality is appalling .

                      Ignorance and provincialism : moderate does not exist in the Muslim world . There is NO moderate Islam (dixit the dictator of Turkey )thus there can be no moderate Muslims . Moderate is a western concept that has no place outside the west .

                      Unwillingness to face reality : Muslims are not people as we. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet (dixit Kipling : a liberal ).

                      The one world idea or globalisation is a bad idea that has costed millions of lives . The communists failed to export their ideology, US liberal democracy also will fail : the war in Iraq and the import of millions of non Americans are striking examples . The same for the advent of Putin .

                      WWI alreadestroyed the one world idea : German workers fought against French workers and the Austrian Rothschilds fought against the British Rothschilds .

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Just to digress slightly, can I ask AG's jewish members how they feel about muslim immigration into the USA and Europe, bearing in mind muslims don't like jews and christians?
                        If I was jewish I'd have complained like heck about it but as far as I can tell the US and European jewish communities took it lying down.
                        Obama was letting in 100,000 immigrants a year, so if only 1 percent of them were extremists, that's 1000 potential terrorists a year setting foot on American soil.
                        (In fact I'm surprised most non-jewish US/Euro people took it lying down too)
                        How do you all feel about Trump's stronger anti-immigration stance?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                          Just to digress slightly, can I ask AG's jewish members how they feel about muslim immigration into the USA and Europe, bearing in mind muslims don't like jews and christians?
                          If I was jewish I'd have complained like heck about it but as far as I can tell the US and European jewish communities took it lying down.
                          Obama was letting in 100,000 immigrants a year, so if only 1 percent of them were extremists, that's 1000 potential terrorists a year setting foot on American soil.
                          (In fact I'm surprised most non-jewish US/Euro people took it lying down too)
                          How do you all feel about Trump's stronger anti-immigration stance?

                          But, once here a good portion of those Muslims stop being Muslims over time. Freedom to do stuff and the availability of vices generally tramples a prudish, backwards, repressive form of religion.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by craven View Post
                            But most of those expansion are in areas that the Palestians are not going to get in the first place.

                            you forget the Palestians elected there govt hence they are responsible for whatever Hamas does Just like we are responsible for whatever our govt does.
                            What exactly makes you think that the expansions are in areas that the Palestinians could not or should not get? Not to mention the places in which Palestinians ARE already there , and they are forced to leave

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_...inian_conflict


                            Here is one recent case which made it to the news

                            August 29, 2017

                            http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/29/middle...ols/index.html

                            Israel demolishes schools for Palestinians, citing lack of permits
                            and here is another

                            February 7, 2017

                            http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...206-story.html

                            The Washington Post

                            Israel's parliament passed a contentious law late Monday that allows the state to seize land privately owned by Palestinians in the West Bank and grant the properties to Jewish settlements for their exclusive use.

                            The measure is designed to protect homes in Jewish settlements, built on private Palestinian property "in good faith or at the state's instruction," from possible court-ordered evacuation and demolition.
                            As for the thing about personal responsibility for the actions of the government, does it justify collective punishment? And if this is the case, who is holding the Jews collectively accountable for the actions? We certainly do not do it by giving them billions...
                            Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 19:00.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                              Sigh,sigh : the provincialism, ignorance and unwillingness to face reality is appalling .

                              Ignorance and provincialism : moderate does not exist in the Muslim world . There is NO moderate Islam (dixit the dictator of Turkey )thus there can be no moderate Muslims . Moderate is a western concept that has no place outside the west .

                              Unwillingness to face reality : Muslims are not people as we. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet (dixit Kipling : a liberal ).

                              The one world idea or globalisation is a bad idea that has costed millions of lives . The communists failed to export their ideology, US liberal democracy also will fail : the war in Iraq and the import of millions of non Americans are striking examples . The same for the advent of Putin .

                              WWI alreadestroyed the one world idea : German workers fought against French workers and the Austrian Rothschilds fought against the British Rothschilds .
                              This is not about globalization. And as I explained before, the Palestinian issue is much more complex to be described as an example of Islamism. You did not even know Hamas before 1987 when it was founded. Arafat was NOT an Islamist or a person who believed in Sharia. He was a secular Palestinian. But if you really believe what you say then you should be worried with the Israeli plans of creating a big Israeli State in which the Muslims may very well be the majority of the population...
                              Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 18:31.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                                There can be no negociations between the Palestinians and Israen : you do not negotiate with people who want to kill you ;there were also no negociations between the Jews and the Third Reich .

                                terrorists understand only one answer :violence .
                                I think its good to hear all perspectives including yours friend, if only we had a Hamas member in here posting we would be able to get close to a full perspective of Israel Palestine. We have itt the Americans whom support Israel>Palestine, the Americans whom are neutral, and I dont think anyone itt supports Palestine> Israel. In addition we have the non American Iljadw posting in extreme favor of Israel and vehemently against Muslims in general. In fact the Hamas folks actually say they are against Zionism not Judaism, where as Iljadw is against Islam. I dont think we can find an equal on the Hamas side to the views presented by our friend Iljadw, I think we would have to go up a few notches for that one.
                                Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                                Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                                George S Patton

                                Comment

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