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  • #61
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Strangely enough the Lebanese and Syrians I grew up with did not have an obsession against the state of Israel. I can't say the recent people that came over from what was called "Palestine" are free from the issue.

    If your Great Grandparents once had a house and property in what is now Israel and the property was sold by the Israeli government, take the money and use it to get an education and go where you can make a living. The Christians and Druze of this area don't get subsidized and get special treatment.

    I am a white American whose ancestors benefited from taking land from the previous owners. In most cases owners have no progeny to give the land back to, so I feel no guilt. I don't have a need to leave and give the land to some people from Mexico with no ties to this land.

    The lands in the Middle East have been conquered and the populations have been misplaced quite often for thousands of years. Sooner or later you have to move on. The people who run "Palestine" politically make sure they get the best benefits so I feel no need to fund them.

    Pruitt
    To clarify what I have said, I am not saying that Israelis should return to wherever they came from simply because it was not right for the, to come to Palestine in the 20th century. People, gain rights over time...But this does not mean that we should be silent or even fund the modern Israeli attitude which permits settlers to expand on lands occupied by the Palestinians...
    To use your expression, this is like arguing that we should tolerate every case of today's immigration from Mexico because "populations have been misplaced quite often for thousands of years. Sooner or later you have to move on."
    Last edited by pamak; 17 Sep 17, 18:39.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Moulin View Post
      should stop assistance period ....we are in huge debt....this is a no-brainer
      it's not even close to being argued
      you do realize that foreign aid is a very very small part of part of the budget and wouldn't even be noticed in our budget.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by pamak View Post
        To clarify what I have said, I am not saying that Israelis should return to wherever they came from simply because it was not right for the, to come to Palestine in the 20th century. People, gain rights over time...But this does not mean that we should be silent or even fund the modern Israeli attitude which permits settlers to expand on lands occupied by the Palestinians...
        To use your expression, this is like arguing that we should tolerate every case of today's immigration from Mexico because "populations have been misplaced quite often for thousands of years. Sooner or later you have to move on."
        And, what about Jews living in the Trans-Palestine territory prior to the formation of Israel? What about ones that purchased the land they're living on? Same goes for Israelis who have purchased land in the Palestinian territories.
        Just because the Arabs, and Palestinians in particular, are bigoted racists toward Jews and Israel shouldn't give them a pass on not permitting Jews to purchase land or live in their territory should it?

        http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2012/...your-passport/

        http://theduran.com/here-are-is-a-li...-left-outrage/

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          And, what about Jews living in the Trans-Palestine territory prior to the formation of Israel? What about ones that purchased the land they're living on? Same goes for Israelis who have purchased land in the Palestinian territories.
          Just because the Arabs, and Palestinians in particular, are bigoted racists toward Jews and Israel shouldn't give them a pass on not permitting Jews to purchase land or live in their territory should it?

          http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2012/...your-passport/

          http://theduran.com/here-are-is-a-li...-left-outrage/

          I repeat: The Palestinian settlements do not have legal status, and they cannot buy such legal status. I am not saying this. There is a Security Council Resolution which has said it, but it is almost completely forgotten. And no, I am not talking just about the recent resolution during Obama's watch...
          See

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...Resolution_446



          So, it is like saying that just because Mexicans have bought land in your area, they have created a legitimate claims to annex it to Mexico. As for the Jews living in Palestinian territories before the formation of Israel, their numbers were very small according to the British Mandate demographic data we have, and their property should be treated as personal property and not as an "Israeli property." And by the way, it must be expected that any solution to the Israeli-Palestine problem cannot satisfy everybody. There will be "losers" on both sides and presumably the negotiations will include talks about appropriate form of compensation for them. The millions of Palestinian refugees who also had property in Israel before the Israeli Independence most probably will not return back, and some Israeli settlements most probably will remain in their place, but just because there is no perfect solution, it does not mean that there should not be one.
          Last edited by pamak; 18 Sep 17, 16:33.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            Never happen until there is a two state solution and even that isn't a guarantee
            There was a two state solution in 1948, rejected by the "Palestinians" and their Arab/Muslim neighbor nations. The anti-Israel agenda was the total destruction of the smaller Israeli state and it's Jewish population. The Arabs/Muslims lost that war and hence the larger Israeli state.

            While many whine and wring hands over the "displaced" "Palestinians"(many of today's such have no legitimate claim back to 1948), hardly any do similar over the displaced Jews whom had to flee Arab/Muslim lands back then or face certain death.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...%93Israeli_War
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration declared its firm support Thursday for a bill that would suspend U.S. financial assistance to the Palestinian Authority until it ends what critics have described as a long-standing practice of rewarding Palestinians who kill Americans and Israelis.
              The State Department announcement comes nearly six weeks after the Senate Foreign Relations Committee backed the measure. The legislation, which is named after an American who was stabbed to death in Israel by a Palestinian, reflects bipartisan outrage over what lawmakers have termed a “pay to slay” program endorsed by the Palestinian Authority.
              “The Trump administration strongly supports the Taylor Force Act, which is a consequence of Palestinian Authority and Palestine Liberation Organization’s policy of paying terrorists and their families,” the State Department said.
              The department added that President Donald Trump “raised the need to end any part of this program that incentivizes violence against Israeli and American citizens with President Mahmoud Abbas last May in both Washington and Bethlehem.”
              But the Palestinian Authority has disputed the accusations and called the bill misinformed. Husam Zomlot, chief representative of the Palestinian General Delegation to the U.S., said last month that the program is more than 50 years old and is aimed at giving support to families “who lost their breadwinners to the atrocities of the occupation, the vast majority of whom are unduly arrested or killed by Israel.”
              One of the bill’s main sponsors, Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., said the Palestinian Authority has created monetary incentives for acts of terrorism by paying monthly stipends of as much as $3,500 to Palestinians who commit acts of violence and to their families. The amount of the payment depends on the length of the jail sentence they receive for the crime, he said. Corker is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.
              Palestinians have argued that ending Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem — lands that Palestinians seek for their state — is key to defeating terrorism.
              Taylor Force was an MBA student at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee and a West Point graduate who was visiting Israel in March 2016 when he was killed. Force was from Lubbock, Texas. His parents live in South Carolina.
              Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said the Palestinian Authority praised Force’s killer as a “heroic martyr.” He estimated that the Palestinian Authority has paid $144 million in “martyr payments” over the years.


              https://apnews.com/340b972c2cf8474d9...o-Palestinians


              Yes, no more money to people who hate us...
              More to the point, the "Palestinians" are in the situation they are due to their fellow Arab/Muslim neighbors and there lies the responsibility for sustaining the "Palestinians".

              Israel absorbed many of the displaced Jews whom had to leave Arab/Muslim lands in the wake of the 1948 war (where Palestinians and their Arab/Muslim neighbors rejected the UN two-state solution of 1947), so the situation with regard to the Palestinians is neither Israeli nor USA fault or obligation.
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                There was a two state solution in 1948, rejected by the "Palestinians" and their Arab/Muslim neighbor nations. The anti-Israel agenda was the total destruction of the smaller Israeli state and it's Jewish population. The Arabs/Muslims lost that war and hence the larger Israeli state.

                While many whine and wring hands over the "displaced" "Palestinians"(many of today's such have no legitimate claim back to 1948), hardly any do similar over the displaced Jews whom had to flee Arab/Muslim lands back then or face certain death.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...%93Israeli_War
                There have been repeated two-state solutions proposed well into the 90's and the Palestinians rejected every one of them.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  There have been repeated two-state solutions proposed well into the 90's and the Palestinians rejected every one of them.
                  This is what you heard, but it does not mean it is accurate. Solutions that simply create patches of Palestinian territories here and there without continuity and without access to adequate sources, including water are not really solutions. They are just offers...

                  But even if we assume that your claim is accurate, you are talking about things from a period 20 years ago, when Arafat was still alive! Many things can change after such a long time, and we have historical examples of how it became eventually possible to have political agreements between sworn enemies. As I said before, consider the example of the Israeli-Egyptian political agreements.
                  Last edited by pamak; 18 Sep 17, 19:05.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #69


                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      This is what you heard, but it does not mean it is accurate. Solutions that simply create patches of Palestinian territories here and there without continuity and without access to adequate sources, including water are not really solutions. They are just offers...

                      But even if we assume that your claim is accurate, you are talking about things from a period 20 years ago, when Arafat was still alive! Many things can change after such a long time, and we have historical examples of how it became eventually possible to have political agreements between sworn enemies. As I said before, consider the example of the Israeli-Egyptian political agreements.
                      Then show us where Palestine has agreed to a two-state solution.

                      The latest rejections have become more convoluted. For example, Obama got involved in one during his term in office but demanded Israel agree to onerous restrictions on their access to Jerusalem, setting the talks up for failure on both sides. Iran got involved at the UN and sided with Palestine in saying the Obama plan didn't go far enough for Palestine and that the Palestinians should (and would) reject the plan.
                      All Obama got for his meddling was the worst popularity rating of any President ever from Israel while the US remained unpopular with the Palestinians.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post


                        The plan without showing the actual land ownership in 1948 is misleading.



                        Similar picture exists with the demographic situation. And notice that this was AFTER the huge increase of immigration after wwi

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...estine_(region)

                        citing

                        British Government in Palestine - A Survey of Palestine /​ prepared in December 1945 and January 1946 for the information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry.



                        Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 01:25.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          Then show us where Palestine has agreed to a two-state solution.

                          The latest rejections have become more convoluted. For example, Obama got involved in one during his term in office but demanded Israel agree to onerous restrictions on their access to Jerusalem, setting the talks up for failure on both sides. Iran got involved at the UN and sided with Palestine in saying the Obama plan didn't go far enough for Palestine and that the Palestinians should (and would) reject the plan.
                          All Obama got for his meddling was the worst popularity rating of any President ever from Israel while the US remained unpopular with the Palestinians.
                          Did you forget the Israeli decisions to expand the settlements which undermined any attempt to have new negotiations?


                          https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.03008b955aca

                          Israeli settlements grew on Obama’s watch. They may be poised for a boom on Trump’s.


                          And here is one of the most recent examples of Israel's long-term policy: Notice the dates

                          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN11K2CI

                          WORLD NEWS SEPTEMBER 14, 2016

                          WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States will give Israel $38 billion in military assistance over the next decade, the largest such aid package in U.S. history, under a landmark agreement signed on Wednesday.
                          ASSOCIATED PRESS October 5, 2016

                          http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...nts-west-bank/

                          n unusually strong statements, the White House and State Department lashed out at a proposal announced last week to construct a significant new settlement of up to 300 housing units and establish an industrial zone in the West Bank. Both Israel and the Palestinians responded quickly with statements accusing each other of being the real obstacle to peace.
                          Other than that, Obama was very "tough" because he did not veto the latest UN Resolution to condemn such practices.
                          And notice that Obama and everybody else in the US government (including the Congress) "forgot" to ask as a precondition for the aid to have a freeze for any new constructions.
                          Last edited by pamak; 19 Sep 17, 01:53.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            There can be no negociations between the Palestinians and Israen : you do not negotiate with people who want to kill you ;there were also no negociations between the Jews and the Third Reich .

                            terrorists understand only one answer :violence .

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by pamak View Post
                              This is what you heard, but it does not mean it is accurate. Solutions that simply create patches of Palestinian territories here and there without continuity and without access to adequate sources, including water are not really solutions. They are just offers...

                              But even if we assume that your claim is accurate, you are talking about things from a period 20 years ago, when Arafat was still alive! Many things can change after such a long time, and we have historical examples of how it became eventually possible to have political agreements between sworn enemies. As I said before, consider the example of the Israeli-Egyptian political agreements.
                              See your seeing the problem completely wrong The US used all of it leverage to get that deal for the Palestians and it was as good of plan as they were ever going to get and they said no. You speak of time but Israel has not forgotten that the Palestians said no. They have not forgotten when they unilaterally pulled out of Gaza that Hamas took it over and started shooting rockets. So for Israel its only been 10 years since they tried to move ahead but the Palestians just do not want it.


                              Their failure to say yes to a good deal is why we are where we are now. Granted Arfat might of not survived the Palestians probally would have a be life now.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                                There can be no negociations between the Palestinians and Israen : you do not negotiate with people who want to kill you ;there were also no negociations between the Jews and the Third Reich .

                                terrorists understand only one answer :violence .
                                Your words are not that different from what Hamas says. They do not want to negotiate with people who want to steal the Palestinian land. And similar words have been used by the Egyptians and the Israelis in the past.
                                The truth is that all of them have shown that they can very well negotiate. It was not that there was less animosity between the Egyptians and the Israelis after the Yom Kippur War, or that there were not Arab terrorists who wanted to kill their Jewish opponents and Israeli settlers who wanted to confiscate the Arab land. There were other factor, such as, a sense of humility on both sides (as a result of their exposed vulnerabilities during the war) and a more deliberate, persistent and fair US leadership under the "leftist" and "pro-Palestinian" Carter.

                                Of course, such conditions can never exist in an environment where Israelis feel they have the power to do whatever they want and still get billions of dollars as an aid from the US government. And of course, when the US "referee" acts in such a way, it makes it even more difficult for any moderate Arab negotiator to convince his community that there can be meaningful negotiations!
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                                Comment

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