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  • #46
    Originally posted by craven View Post
    um third reich is beyond the period we usually discuss Typically these discussion only go back to the seventies and eighties.

    you need to set your time machine correctly otherwise we end up back arguing over Kane and Abel and if you think I kidding ask around on the forum middle east discussion have ended up that far back sometimes
    There are still today though living Americans effected by the Third Reich. Al Qaeda, ISIL and the likes are a weak group with no air force or navy, they have made just about no noise during the Trump admin...These types of ISIL groups have been on the losing ground in Syria and Iraq and its the Muslims by and large whom are defeating ISIL in battle. Palestinian or Israeli terror otoh is used as a political talking point by loyalists from both sides those loyal to Israel and those loyal to Palestine. And btw many Americans have been spoon feed information they want to hear when it comes to Israel or Palestine. Otoh there are those who seek a middle ground, I try and seek the middle ground when it comes to Israel Palestine as clearly there are good citizens on both sides who share our types of values. Just recently Muslim majority Tunisia legalized interfaith marriage between Muslim women and Christian men its high time Israel and Palestine do the same.

    Bwaha has before brought up a video showing a small # of Palestinians from the 1990s teaching their kids to dislike Jewish folks and now we see this thread. All is fair so therefore the question to Bwaha and those like him is what about the Palestinian Catholics whom are proud of Palestine? And what is to be said about the intolerant gov policies of the Israeli and Palestinian governments, nm the few terrorist mindsets on both sides but one ought address the inhumane policies of Israel and Palestine...policies which go against the values of all the great religions and societies of history.

    I doubt Mr Trump has anything against Palestinians and I question the validity of the OP message. It is true that some people believe that all Palestinians raise their children to hate....but never mind the proof shown itt which depicts Palestinian Catholics and Arab women whom dress as they please which strikes a blow to the Anti Muslims who claim Islam is intolerant or violent
    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
    Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

    George S Patton

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    • #47
      Originally posted by pamak View Post
      Correct!
      Now, does this mean that we should pay such allies? I could understand such aid in the 50's and 60's when Israel was weak, but why should we continue such practices today? Is it because we have money to waste by helping wealthy allies? Or is it because we want to help them with the "housing projects" in the West Bank? I would prefer to help the housing projects in the US instead!
      If the idea is to help strategic allies in the world, then we should also waste our money to help South Korea (another strategic ally and one of the few democracies in the region). And perhaps we should give free money to the UK (our most important strategic ally) to help them with Brexit's cost.

      On top of that, the idea that Israel is today a very useful strategic ally can be disputed. In fact, Israel could not help in any of the fightings we have had in the region during the last 3 decades (and recall that we had to convince Israel to abstain from such fighting during the first Gulf War). Israel was a useful ally during the cold war, but in the modern times, it is more like a liability in political and strategic terms...
      I still view Israel as a strategic partner and there are Islamists who still aren't willing to acknowledge their right to exist. As long as they are a fellow democracy under siege my vote is to help them. When the Islamists back off or Israel tells us "we got this" I will be more open to leaving Israel on their own.

      As far as housing projects, I'd rather defund Pakistan and toss that money at social projects than defund Israel. Priorities.
      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by pamak View Post
        If you want to discuss these things, I will be willing to do so in another thread.

        There, you will see things that are not often mentioned in the press, such as, the use of detentions without charges for Palestinian suspects, and I have no problem to have the PA provide legal assistance to such suspects and support due process instead of counting on the secret "justice" of the Israeli executive branch and of the military. And I do not have a problem with assisting widows and children just because their husband or father was a criminal. I do not see any of the above as aiding terrorism. The same is true with many Israelis. who also do not accept such practices...

        http://www.btselem.org/administrativ...etention_order

        And it does it make sense to expect that somehow the current secular Palestinian administration can eliminate terrorists or that it should pay for their actions when in fact it cannot even defeat Hamas!
        Those things are what we're discussing.

        The PA / PLO doesn't give poor families that kind of assistance unless and until a family member commits a terrorist act. In the US the poor are given assistance on the basis of being poor, not because someone in their family committed a crime.

        The PA was adjudged in a US court of being a terrorist supporting organization and ordered to pay hundreds of millions to their victims.

        So, the question isn't "...not have(ing) a problem with assisting widows and children just because their husband or father was a criminal. I do not see any of the above as aiding terrorism."

        But rather why the Palestinian Authority only hands out large sums of cash and pays major stipends to families whose members have committed terrorist acts. Unlike you, I see that as directly supporting and encouraging terrorism.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
          I still view Israel as a strategic partner and there are Islamists who still aren't willing to acknowledge their right to exist. As long as they are a fellow democracy under siege my vote is to help them. When the Islamists back off or Israel tells us "we got this" I will be more open to leaving Israel on their own.

          As far as housing projects, I'd rather defund Pakistan and toss that money at social projects than defund Israel. Priorities.

          I want BOTH Islamists and settlers recognize the right of the other side to exist! Rewarding the side which tolerates the latter and punishing the side which tolerates the former makes sure that there are no incentives for mutual compromises which is a prerequisite for any agreement. Plus, I cannot simply make excuses for the ineffectiveness of a strong government , such as of Israel, to confront its extremists and condemn the ineffectiveness of the much weaker Palestinian government which cannot even control its whole territory. In any case, my position is that the US should use financial aid as a tool to pressure BOTH sides. And if someone believes that such compromises are unrealistic, then use such money to help US citizens instead of Israeli or Palestinian or Pakistani or any other who does not live in the US!

          And by the way, the Arab countries (including ones with horrible regimes) are actually more critical in the War against Terror than Israel. Israel could not even offer logistical support, and this was not because they would not want to help. It is just that the Israeli presence is too costly for any US-Arab alliance in the region. Israel, for sure offers valuable information, but this will happen with or without them getting financial aid.
          Last edited by pamak; 16 Sep 17, 20:37.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            Those things are what we're discussing.

            The PA / PLO doesn't give poor families that kind of assistance unless and until a family member commits a terrorist act. In the US the poor are given assistance on the basis of being poor, not because someone in their family committed a crime.

            The PA was adjudged in a US court of being a terrorist supporting organization and ordered to pay hundreds of millions to their victims.

            So, the question isn't "...not have(ing) a problem with assisting widows and children just because their husband or father was a criminal. I do not see any of the above as aiding terrorism."

            But rather why the Palestinian Authority only hands out large sums of cash and pays major stipends to families whose members have committed terrorist acts. Unlike you, I see that as directly supporting and encouraging terrorism.
            The first sentence does not mean that there is support of terrorism. Yes, when families lose one member they face many economic challenges. This is even more so the case in Arab countries when women cannot be effective bread-winners and when families have many kids. Also, the words "until" and "unless" come from you.

            The second bold sentence was not part of the discussion. It is also irrelevant! This is about if a foreign government should simply follow another country's legal decisions without voicing any legal objections. The fact that the Palestinian government disputes the decision is normal. Would you expect the US government to simply obey the rulings of foreign courts about the compensation of Arab victims who decide to sue the US government in Arab courts? Just imagine the drone policy and the innocent victims who can ask for compensation. And this is actually a case with direct and unquestionable involvement of the US state, while the cases of terrorism do not provide such direct links . And in addition to all the above, notice that the initial court decision mentioned a $600 millions compensation, which for the weak Palestinian economy is a huge cost.
            Last edited by pamak; 16 Sep 17, 21:06.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by pamak View Post
              I want BOTH Islamists and settlers recognize the right of the other side to exist! Rewarding the side which tolerates the latter and punishing the side which tolerates the former makes sure that there are no incentives for mutual compromises which is a prerequisite for any agreement. Plus, I cannot simply make excuses for the ineffectiveness of a strong government , such as of Israel, to confront its extremists and condemn the ineffectiveness of the much weaker Palestinian government which cannot even control its whole territory. In any case, my position is that the US should use financial aid as a tool to pressure BOTH sides. And if someone believes that such compromises are unrealistic, then use such money to help US citizens instead of Israeli or Palestinian or Pakistani or any other who does not live in the US!

              And by the way, the Arab countries (including ones with horrible regimes) are actually more critical in the War against Terror than Israel. Israel could not even offer logistical support, and this was not because they would not want to help. It is just that the Israeli presence is too costly for any US-Arab alliance in the region. Israel, for sure offers valuable information, but this will happen with or without them getting financial aid.
              The usual excuses of the Muslim lobby : putting Israel and ISIS on the same level . Israel is the only ally of the west in the ME : we can't trust any Arab. There is no need to give even ONE dime to the Arabs .

              Israel did not use aircraft to murder thousands of Americans. That's all we need to know .

              Israel does not want to destroy any Arab state, while the Arab states want to destroy and Israel ,and the West .

              The only logical strategy is to increase the aid to Israel,till the Arabs no longer want to destroy Israel.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                I still view Israel as a strategic partner and there are Islamists who still aren't willing to acknowledge their right to exist. As long as they are a fellow democracy under siege my vote is to help them. When the Islamists back off or Israel tells us "we got this" I will be more open to leaving Israel on their own.

                As far as housing projects, I'd rather defund Pakistan and toss that money at social projects than defund Israel. Priorities.
                Why not defund both?

                Israel is not a poor nation by any measurement.

                https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/is.html
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
                  There are still today though living Americans effected by the Third Reich. Al Qaeda, ISIL and the likes are a weak group with no air force or navy, they have made just about no noise during the Trump admin...These types of ISIL groups have been on the losing ground in Syria and Iraq and its the Muslims by and large whom are defeating ISIL in battle. Palestinian or Israeli terror otoh is used as a political talking point by loyalists from both sides those loyal to Israel and those loyal to Palestine. And btw many Americans have been spoon feed information they want to hear when it comes to Israel or Palestine. Otoh there are those who seek a middle ground, I try and seek the middle ground when it comes to Israel Palestine as clearly there are good citizens on both sides who share our types of values. Just recently Muslim majority Tunisia legalized interfaith marriage between Muslim women and Christian men its high time Israel and Palestine do the same.

                  Bwaha has before brought up a video showing a small # of Palestinians from the 1990s teaching their kids to dislike Jewish folks and now we see this thread. All is fair so therefore the question to Bwaha and those like him is what about the Palestinian Catholics whom are proud of Palestine? And what is to be said about the intolerant gov policies of the Israeli and Palestinian governments, nm the few terrorist mindsets on both sides but one ought address the inhumane policies of Israel and Palestine...policies which go against the values of all the great religions and societies of history.

                  I doubt Mr Trump has anything against Palestinians and I question the validity of the OP message. It is true that some people believe that all Palestinians raise their children to hate....but never mind the proof shown itt which depicts Palestinian Catholics and Arab women whom dress as they please which strikes a blow to the Anti Muslims who claim Islam is intolerant or violent
                  The Palestinians elected Hamas, a known terrorist organization, to be their government.

                  The policy of Hamas/Palestine is to randomly murder Israelis at every opportunity, very often women and children, and to provide a martyr's benefit to the families of those who kill themselves and others.

                  I'm sure you understand that this makes Palestine an entirely terrorist nation by definition and by action. There is no "middle ground".
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    Why not defund both?

                    Israel is not a poor nation by any measurement.

                    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/is.html
                    I have no problem with that, with the caveat we stay out of their business too. That way, Israel can crush the Palestinians the first time the latter pulls their usual $h!+.

                    Now, I only say that because that's pretty much a forgone conclusion in a war between the two with no stops on it. I want a winner, and I want the fighting to end for good.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      I have no problem with that, with the caveat we stay out of their business too. That way, Israel can crush the Palestinians the first time the latter pulls their usual $h!+.

                      Now, I only say that because that's pretty much a forgone conclusion in a war between the two with no stops on it. I want a winner, and I want the fighting to end for good.
                      Never happen until there is a two state solution and even that isn't a guarantee
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                        Never happen until there is a two state solution and even that isn't a guarantee
                        It would end if one side were wiped off the planet for all intents, if that's how far the fighting would have to go to end it.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          The Palestinians elected Hamas, a known terrorist organization, to be their government.

                          The policy of Hamas/Palestine is to randomly murder Israelis at every opportunity, very often women and children, and to provide a martyr's benefit to the families of those who kill themselves and others.

                          I'm sure you understand that this makes Palestine an entirely terrorist nation by definition and by action. There is no "middle ground".
                          The policy of the settlers/Israel is to systematically loot the Palestinians at every opportunity and deny them national independence, and as long as we do not really condemn this action and we find excuses by pointing at the evils of the other side, millions of more Palestinians will be affected by such policies. History has shown that terrorism is not unique to Palestine and it is not something that cannot be overcome. If you remember, Israel started its struggle for independence by having terrorist organizations and by planting bombs against the British.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            The policy of the settlers/Israel is to systematically loot the Palestinians at every opportunity and deny them national independence, and as long as we do not really condemn this action and we find excuses by pointing at the evils of the other side, millions of more Palestinians will be affected by such policies. History has shown that terrorism is not unique to Palestine and it is not something that cannot be overcome. If you remember, Israel started its struggle for independence by having terrorist organizations and by planting bombs against the British.
                            Got news for you... The only group holding the Palestinians back from having a nation are the Palestinians. Their issue is they want it all, or nothing. So, they get nothing and always will so long as their demands are for the whole pie.

                            Sure, in the immediate post war years the Israelis used terrorism to advance their cause for an independent state. But, they weren't racked by internecine warfare and making demands they had zero means of achieving.
                            They got their state and the terrorism stopped, only to be replaced by immediate and repeated attacks on that state by their neighbors.
                            The neighboring Arab states also told the Palestinians to flee Israeli territory and that they could return when Israel was destroyed. That didn't happen, and the Arab states wanted no part of the Palestinians they told to flee living in their countries.

                            The Arabs couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Strangely enough the Lebanese and Syrians I grew up with did not have an obsession against the state of Israel. I can't say the recent people that came over from what was called "Palestine" are free from the issue.

                              If your Great Grandparents once had a house and property in what is now Israel and the property was sold by the Israeli government, take the money and use it to get an education and go where you can make a living. The Christians and Druze of this area don't get subsidized and get special treatment.

                              I am a white American whose ancestors benefited from taking land from the previous owners. In most cases owners have no progeny to give the land back to, so I feel no guilt. I don't have a need to leave and give the land to some people from Mexico with no ties to this land.

                              The lands in the Middle East have been conquered and the populations have been misplaced quite often for thousands of years. Sooner or later you have to move on. The people who run "Palestine" politically make sure they get the best benefits so I feel no need to fund them.

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Got news for you... The only group holding the Palestinians back from having a nation are the Palestinians. Their issue is they want it all, or nothing. So, they get nothing and always will so long as their demands are for the whole pie.

                                Sure, in the immediate post war years the Israelis used terrorism to advance their cause for an independent state. But, they weren't racked by internecine warfare and making demands they had zero means of achieving.
                                They got their state and the terrorism stopped, only to be replaced by immediate and repeated attacks on that state by their neighbors.
                                The neighboring Arab states also told the Palestinians to flee Israeli territory and that they could return when Israel was destroyed. That didn't happen, and the Arab states wanted no part of the Palestinians they told to flee living in their countries.

                                The Arabs couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack.
                                The reason the Israelis were able to get their state was because they had the support of the west and the east (people may recall that both the US and the USSR supported the creation of Israel). Their success was not related to the nature of their demands. If anything, having people from Europe flock to the Middle East to claim the land from the local inhabitants was quite unreasonable. Historical claims based on what the situation was in Palestine 2000 years ago were also unreasonable. If we use such standards, we should all start killing each other because things have changed a lot since that time, and we can make historical claims about everything. We can start with the indigenous Americans' historic claims... What made a difference and helped Israelis accomplish their claim was the Holocaust and the realization that Jewish people need a safe country of their own. In this sense, having a country of their own was VERY reasonable and in fact necessary. But this does not mean that it was reasonable to have the population in Palestine pay for the mistakes of the Germans.

                                Regarding your remarks about internal strife, I will say that it is easier to avoid internal strife when you have broad international support and when you win wars. This does not mean that the Arabs (and the Palestinians) have had effective leadership or armies. For sure, they were much less effective compared to the Jewish leaders of the 20th century, who after all came from developed nations and had a much longer tradition and culture of political organizing. Still, these Jewish leaders would not be able to accomplish their objectives without international support because the Jewish presence in the Palestine was very small in the beginning of the 20th century. It first required an ambivalent British policy which helped them build a significant Jewish demographic in Palestine despite the Arab (including Palestinian) protests at the time who correctly saw that such immigration will have political consequences when these immigrants were quite direct about their land claims, and then it required the holocaust to build an almost international consensus for the creation of Israel which legitimized the Jewish massive immigration to Palestine. Meanwhile, let's not forget that the British got the Arab support during WWI by promising them independence. Recall Lawrence and how his operations helped the British Army in its battles against the Ottoman Empire.

                                I also do not buy that the Palestinians want everything while the Israelis are just reasonable in negotiations. In fact, there have been many changes during the last 70 years and there HAS been an attempt to adopt more moderate positions on BOTH sides. Even Hamas has released a new chapter which indirectly recognizes the right of Israel to exist. I think this shows that public pressure can affect even Hamas. The idea of equating them to ISIS is wrong.

                                http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-h...501-story.html

                                The problem is that , objectively speaking, the hardliners in Israel do not create any cost to their society because the world at large is indifferent to their actions, As long as money flows, everything is fine despite the numerous UN condemnations. As a result, they feel no pressure to modify in any way their positions. In addition, the more moderate politicians have no motive to go after them and incur the political cost. So despite the fact that today there ARE many more Israelis who believe in a two-state solution, the practical result is that this change in attitudes does not lead to a real change in what the Israelis really offer in the negotiations. Actually, let me take this back because the continuous expansion of the Israeli settlements means that the Israelis are building conditions to increase their claims in any future negotiations.

                                By the way, I bolded your sentence because this is essentially my position. Struggles for national independence and the mere existence of a nation (and for the Palestinians this is about their existence as a nation), are often very ugly, and they frequently include the deliberate targeting of civilians to minimize their casualties and accomplish the political objectives. And this is not a peculiarity of the Palestinian culture, nor is it a characteristic of the Palestinian Islamism. Recall that Arafat's and the PLO's terrorism was secular. Their decision to adopt terrorist actions in the 70's and 80's was a result of their inability of confronting Israel's power without suffering big losses. Now recall when the British national independence was at stake, and when the British felt that they would suffer excessive casualties in the broad light over Germany's military targets during precision bombings. What did they do? They used the cover of darkness to target whole cities... And when the Americans thought that a landing in Japan would bring heavy casualties , they found it acceptable to accomplish their aims by deliberately targeting civilians. And notice how even today a big part of the western public opinion justifies these actions based on arguments, such as, "the use of atomic bombs minimized casualties for both sides." Of course, Hamas can use a similar argument to argue that it pursues its objectives in a way that minimizes casualties for both Israelis and Palestinians.
                                Notice also how difficult it was for the western allies at the time to criticize Soviet actions at a time when it was judged that it was okay to cooperate with the devil. And recall the London and Washington reactions to the Katyn massacre when they ignored the call by the Polish government-in exile to have an international inquiry and simply adopted Stalin's position that the Germans did it "despite overwhelming evidence of Soviet responsibility."

                                https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...9-00/art6.html

                                My point is that the mere existence of terrorism is not something that should prohibit negotiations. This does NOT mean that moderate Palestinians should be off the hook and not feel international pressure to take measures to limit it. It only means that the demand that negotiations should only take place after moderate Palestinians eradicate 100% terrorism or after they go full throttle against Hamas because of some zero-tolerance policy is unrealistic and therefore wrong.
                                .
                                Still, as long as the moderates DO show a desire to distant themselves from the more radical elements, and as long as they express a big part of the Palestinian population they should be able to negotiate a political agreement. Such an agreement can change the climate as long as it satisfy the mainstream national feelings of both sides. And in principle, there is nothing to prohibit an attempt of starting a political process for a Palestinian country which will come at two stages. First, it will include the partial creation of an independent Palestinian State within the West Bank, and at a second stage, it will include the creation of the rest of the Palestinian State within Gaza which will also include some type of a corridor to connect the two areas. The second stage will depend on the behavior of the Palestinians in Gaza. Make West Bank an example of how moderation can bring political results , and then we will see if the extremists in Gaza can continue to enjoy public support there...


                                In other words, there are many ways to have negotiations without caving to extremists, and it is worth pursuing political agreements. See for example the Israeli-Egyptian relations after Israel's independence. For years they were sworn enemies, but after about 30 years, they realized that they had to craft a political agreement. The Egyptians had realized that Israel was just too strong and nobody could erase it from the map, and the Israelis realized after the Yom Kippur war that it was too dangerous to underestimate the Egyptian nationalistic feelings which demanded revenge for the humiliating 1967 defeat and the loss of Sinai. And this agreement (perhaps the best thing in Carter's presidency) became the starting point for a different era in the Israeli-Egyptian relationship. And yes, there are still lunatics in Egypt who want to kill Jews and lunatics in Israel who see Sinai as part of the "promised land," but their presence cannot drug the two countries in new wars. This is much better compared to the situation that existed before the 1970's when both countries were ready to start a new war every decade or so...
                                Last edited by pamak; 17 Sep 17, 21:42.
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                                Comment

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