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Trump administration backs bill to halt aid to Palestinians

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    Lebanon is almost half Christian.

    Hezbollah may have had that one off incident in the 80S with the US military but so have others... Hezbollah includes Christians in its ranks and its ideology is accepted by the UK and Russia. .

    To reiterate both the Israeli and Palestinian gov are inhumane this is clearly shown by both gov bigoted marriage policy.
    um actually comparing Israel and Hezzbolah is like comparing a guy who robs a store to mass murderer yeah both are bad but really are they on the same level

    false equivalency

    and wow your right about Christians that number rebounded a lot

    The fact that number 1 killer of americans is fighting the number 3 killer of americans does not make them any less American hater and killers

    Comment


    • #32
      The face of Arabs that bigoted racist Zionist and Salafis will never show,

      https://www.google.com/search?q=arab...w=1252&bih=640
      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

      George S Patton

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by craven View Post
        um actually comparing Israel and Hezzbolah is like comparing a guy who robs a store to mass murderer yeah both are bad but really are they on the same level

        false equivalency

        and wow your right about Christians that number rebounded a lot

        The fact that number 1 killer of americans is fighting the number 3 killer of americans does not make them any less American hater and killers
        I would compare Israel and Hamas not Israel and Hezbollah. The Israeli gov is just as bad as Hamas due to the marriage policy.

        The # 1 killer of Americans in the recent times was probably the Third Reich. Muslims, Jews and Christians have a ton in common. The Israeli and Palestinian gov go against the values of Judaism and Islam.
        Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
        Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

        George S Patton

        Comment


        • #34
          Wow that set the troll off didn't it...
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
            I would compare Israel and Hamas not Israel and Hezbollah. The Israeli gov is just as bad as Hamas due to the marriage policy.

            The # 1 killer of Americans in the recent times was probably the Third Reich. Muslims, Jews and Christians have a ton in common. The Israeli and Palestinian gov go against the values of Judaism and Islam.
            um third reich is beyond the period we usually discuss Typically these discussion only go back to the seventies and eighties.

            you need to set your time machine correctly otherwise we end up back arguing over Kane and Abel and if you think I kidding ask around on the forum middle east discussion have ended up that far back sometimes

            Comment


            • #36
              Didn't the Palestinians dance in the streets after 9/11?
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                Didn't the Palestinians dance in the streets after 9/11?
                Did they take part in the attack?
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • #38
                  How is this thread related to the current conversation? It is related only if one makes the assumption that Palestinians do not deserve financial help because they support terrorism. This implies that Hamas controls all Palestinians, which, of course, is not true since the West Bank is controlled by secular Palestinians.

                  The question also implies that single women and their children should not get financial aid to help them escape from poverty whenever the male husband or father dies as a result of his participation in a clearly illegal and immoral action. So, from a moral perspective, does this mean that the children of criminals who got killed by the police should not receive welfare? We do not follow such principles here, so why should we demand from others to apply different standards when they distribute financial aid?

                  And can anybody explain to me why we continue giving aid to Israel? Is it because they do not have a powerful army (and nuclear weapons) to defend themselves, or is it because they do not have a wealthy country?

                  And why should the settlement policy receive less moral condemnation than the Palestinian terrorism? If the latter violates the right of life, the former violates the right of freedom. Is the violation of one more serious than the violation of the other? Not to mention that in the case of the settlement policies you have the clear participation of the official state while in the case of terrorism you cannot say the same thing with at least the current Palestinian leadership in the West Bank.

                  And somebody may recall how Israel actually helped Hamas gain power in the 1980's when the main threat at the time was the PLO and Hamas was seen as a useful tool to challenge the PLO's power.
                  Last edited by pamak; 16 Sep 17, 16:25.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    should stop assistance period ....we are in huge debt....this is a no-brainer
                    it's not even close to being argued
                    Last edited by Moulin; 16 Sep 17, 16:23.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      How is this thread related to the current conversation? It is related only if one makes the assumption that Palestinians do not deserve financial help because they support terrorism. This implies that Hamas controls all Palestinians, which, of course, is not true since the West Bank is controlled by secular Palestinians.
                      Hamas doesn't control all the Palestinians. Other terrorist groups control portions including but not limited to: The PLO, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and the Popular Resistance Committees.
                      I also severely doubt there are any "secular" Palestinians running anything.


                      The question also implies that single women and their children should not get financial aid to help them escape from poverty whenever the male husband or father dies as a result of his participation in a clearly illegal and immoral action. So, from a moral perspective, does this mean that the children of criminals who got killed by the police should not receive welfare? We do not follow such principles here, so why should we demand from others to apply different standards when they distribute financial aid?
                      Why should anyone profit from criminal activity. That's clearly the intent of these payments and it is also obvious that it encourages more of the same.

                      And can anybody explain to me why we continue giving aid to Israel? Is it because they do not have a powerful army (and nuclear weapons) to defend themselves, or is it because they do not have a wealthy country?
                      In part because the Israelis provide services in kind going the other direction, unlike Palestine which has next to zero to offer for export.

                      And why should the settlement policy receive less moral condemnation than the Palestinian terrorism? If the latter violates the right of life, the former violates the right of freedom. Is the violation of one more serious than the violation of the other? Not to mention that in the case of the settlement policies you have the clear participation of the official state while in the case of terrorism you cannot say the same thing with at least the current Palestinian leadership in the West Bank.
                      Because settlement doesn't involve violence. If the settlement is being done on land owned and properly acquired (not outright taken by force of government etc.) where's the problem?
                      What's the argument against this? Race? Ethnicity? Unfairness?

                      And somebody may recall how Israel actually helped Hamas gain power in the 1980's when the main threat at the time was the PLO and Hamas was seen as a useful tool to challenge the PLO's power.
                      Divide your enemy...? At least lately the Israelis have stopped having to invade Gaza and the West Bank to stop mortar and rocket attacks... Between the wall dividing Israel from Palestinian occupied land, and a defense system that can shoot down either weapon, it's pretty much made things a lot more peaceful.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        Hamas doesn't control all the Palestinians. Other terrorist groups control portions including but not limited to: The PLO, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and the Popular Resistance Committees.
                        I also severely doubt there are any "secular" Palestinians running anything.
                        The political authority in the West Bank does not show any signs of supporting terrorism


                        Why should anyone profit from criminal activity. That's clearly the intent of these payments and it is also obvious that it encourages more of the same.
                        It is not profit from criminal activity. It is getting help to face the effects of a criminal activity. Again, we do not deny aid to children of criminals. If they are below poverty, they will get help. So, if we do this, there is no justification in telling others not to follow the same principle...


                        In part because the Israelis provide services in kind going the other direction, unlike Palestine which has next to zero to offer for export.
                        BS!

                        I am talking about foreign AID, and Israel receives the biggest proportion of such aid (at least per capita and perhaps in absolute numbers too). This is not about payments for services in kind...

                        Because settlement doesn't involve violence. If the settlement is being done on land owned and properly acquired (not outright taken by force of government etc.) where's the problem?
                        What's the argument against this? Race? Ethnicity? Unfairness?
                        Denying liberty or independence is no less evil than denying life. This is the idea behind the phrase "give me liberty or give me death/" So, nothing in principle makes one "less evil" than the other. Also, there IS violence during the settlement expansion, and it is a state sponsored terrorism with forced evacuations and demolitions of homes. This is worse than Antifa's violence which is considered domestic terrorism. And all these take place in clear violation of security council decisions which find the expansion of such settlements as being an obstacle to the peace process which takes place outside Israel's internationally recognized borders. Not to mention that forced evacuations or collective punishment are clearly illegal...




                        Divide your enemy...? At least lately the Israelis have stopped having to invade Gaza and the West Bank to stop mortar and rocket attacks... Between the wall dividing Israel from Palestinian occupied land, and a defense system that can shoot down either weapon, it's pretty much made things a lot more peaceful.
                        Yes, it was about dividing the enemy. My point was that such strategy cannot bring any real solution. Ignoring moderate politicians like Abbas, destroys their political influence within the Palestinian society and plays in the hands of extremists. Of course, such tactic is very useful if someone is not really interested in finding a political solution. But then, one has to plan how he would deal with the Israeli demographics when the Arabic population within Israel grows so fast...
                        Last edited by pamak; 16 Sep 17, 18:25.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pamak View Post
                          The political authority in the West Bank does not show any signs of supporting terrorism
                          Let's just start with this one:

                          Your tax dollars at work: The Palestinian Authority is now using half of its foreign aid to reward terrorism.
                          The new PA budget boosts support to terrorists in prison by 13 percent and aid for the families of those killed “in the struggle against Zion” 4 percent, reports the Institute for Contemporary Affairs.
                          The total, $344 million, equals 49.6 percent of all foreign aid to the PA. In other words, cash from Uncle Sam, Europe and even Israel is subsidizing “welfare for terrorists.”
                          The PA sends a salary to each Palestinian imprisoned for an attack on Israelis, hitting over $3,000 a month after 30 years. Other stipends go to families of “martyrs” killed in the act. That’s $344 million for 2017 that’s not going to build roads or hospitals.
                          http://nypost.com/2017/07/28/palesti...reward-terror/

                          Is the Palestinian Authority a haven for terrorism?
                          Yes. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the secular al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades—all formally classified as terrorist groups by the U.S. government—operate from the Palestinian-ruled territories governed by Mahmoud Abbas, who succeeded Yasir Arafat as leader of the Fatah party. The al-Aqsa Brigades are closely tied to the al-Fatah faction, but Israelis and Palestinians differ bitterly over what role Arafat and his regime played in terrorism, and many Palestinians say that violent resistance to Israeli occupation and settlement-building is legitimate.
                          https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/ter...nian-authority

                          Palestinian Authority, PLO appeal U.S. terror support verdict

                          NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Palestinian Authority and the Palestine Liberation Organization on Tuesday urged a U.S. appeals court to toss a more than $655 million award won by a group of American families who accused them of supporting terrorist attacks in Israel.

                          A U.S. jury in 2015 found the defendants liable under the U.S. Anti-Terrorism Act in a case that could bolster efforts by Americans to use the law to hold foreign entities responsible in U.S. courts for overseas attacks
                          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN0X924O

                          Seems everybody, but you and some other deniers on the Left, thinks so.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            How is this thread related to the current conversation? It is related only if one makes the assumption that Palestinians do not deserve financial help because they support terrorism. This implies that Hamas controls all Palestinians, which, of course, is not true since the West Bank is controlled by secular Palestinians.

                            The question also implies that single women and their children should not get financial aid to help them escape from poverty whenever the male husband or father dies as a result of his participation in a clearly illegal and immoral action. So, from a moral perspective, does this mean that the children of criminals who got killed by the police should not receive welfare? We do not follow such principles here, so why should we demand from others to apply different standards when they distribute financial aid?

                            And can anybody explain to me why we continue giving aid to Israel? Is it because they do not have a powerful army (and nuclear weapons) to defend themselves, or is it because they do not have a wealthy country?

                            And why should the settlement policy receive less moral condemnation than the Palestinian terrorism? If the latter violates the right of life, the former violates the right of freedom. Is the violation of one more serious than the violation of the other? Not to mention that in the case of the settlement policies you have the clear participation of the official state while in the case of terrorism you cannot say the same thing with at least the current Palestinian leadership in the West Bank.

                            And somebody may recall how Israel actually helped Hamas gain power in the 1980's when the main threat at the time was the PLO and Hamas was seen as a useful tool to challenge the PLO's power.
                            Israel is a strategic ally and one of the few democracies in the Middle East.
                            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              Let's just start with this one:



                              http://nypost.com/2017/07/28/palesti...reward-terror/




                              https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/ter...nian-authority

                              Palestinian Authority, PLO appeal U.S. terror support verdict


                              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN0X924O

                              Seems everybody, but you and some other deniers on the Left, thinks so.
                              If you want to discuss these things, I will be willing to do so in another thread.

                              There, you will see things that are not often mentioned in the press, such as, the use of detentions without charges for Palestinian suspects, and I have no problem to have the PA provide legal assistance to such suspects and support due process instead of counting on the secret "justice" of the Israeli executive branch and of the military. And I do not have a problem with assisting widows and children just because their husband or father was a criminal. I do not see any of the above as aiding terrorism. The same is true with many Israelis. who also do not accept such practices...

                              http://www.btselem.org/administrativ...etention_order

                              And it does it make sense to expect that somehow the current secular Palestinian administration can eliminate terrorists or that it should pay for their actions when in fact it cannot even defeat Hamas!
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                                Israel is a strategic ally and one of the few democracies in the Middle East.
                                Correct!
                                Now, does this mean that we should pay such allies? I could understand such aid in the 50's and 60's when Israel was weak, but why should we continue such practices today? Is it because we have money to waste by helping wealthy allies? Or is it because we want to help them with the "housing projects" in the West Bank? I would prefer to help the housing projects in the US instead!
                                If the idea is to help strategic allies in the world, then we should also waste our money to help South Korea (another strategic ally and one of the few democracies in the region). And perhaps we should give free money to the UK (our most important strategic ally) to help them with Brexit's cost.

                                On top of that, the idea that Israel is today a very useful strategic ally can be disputed. In fact, Israel could not help in any of the fightings we have had in the region during the last 3 decades (and recall that we had to convince Israel to abstain from such fighting during the first Gulf War). Israel was a useful ally during the cold war, but in the modern times, it is more like a liability in political and strategic terms...
                                Last edited by pamak; 16 Sep 17, 19:38.
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                                Comment

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