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  • Originally posted by pamak View Post
    I disagree...

    First, the occupation in West Bank took place during the 1967 war in which Israel attacked Egypt and Jordan. And the land grab continues up until today.

    Second, even if we accept the position that the attack was a justified "preemptive one" as a result of the Egyptian provocations, the Palestinians in the occupied territories cannot be held politically responsible for the Egyptian or Jordanian decisions in 1967.


    Third, tactical issues are close related to the type of military equipment you have. When you are the only nuclear power in the area, it is hard to argue that you need to occupy the West Bank because this is vital for your national security. It is also hard to argue that this occupation is necessary from a military point of view if the negotiations about a Palestinian state in the occupied territories includes safety provisions, such as, demilitarized zones or arms restrictions. The Israelis were able to defend themselves (and attack twice during the Suez war and the 1967 Six Day war) when the military balance was way worse against them and at the time when they did not have nuclear weapons.


    Fourth, your phrase "Lots of occupied territory wouldn't be occupied but for Palestinian/Arab belligerence" can be also stated in the form of "lots of Palestinian/Arab belligerence would not take place but for the Israeli occupation." See how Egypt's "belligerence" receded after they got back Sinai. In other words, such view of things lead to nowhere and just create excuses for the continuation of the occupation and the belligerence.
    1. The Six Day War was in response to the closure of the Straits of Tiran. This was economic warfare and geopolitical provocation that warranted the action. The Egyptians were the aggressors and should have left the straits open if they didn't want war. Freedom of the seas is an international interest.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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    • 2. The Palestinians backed and were backed by Egypt so yes they can.

      3. It doesn't matter if Israel is formidable. War isn't about fighting fair. Holding the West Bank is in their national security's best interest and neither they nor I see any reason to give it back.

      4. That line doesn't work since Islamist opposition to Israeli existence predates "the occupation". The urge among the theocrats for Jewish genocide warrants taking strong measures for safety.

      This all goes back to my bottom line: either the Palestinians renounce terrorism and accept Israel or I have no interest in changing my vote.
      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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      • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
        1. The Six Day War was in response to the closure of the Straits of Tiran. This was economic warfare and geopolitical provocation that warranted the action. The Egyptians were the aggressors and should have left the straits open if they didn't want war. Freedom of the seas is an international interest.
        1.I was VERY specific in my response:

        The Palestinians did NOT close any Straits of Tiran. THis is why I said that EVEN if one wants to talk about a preemptive war, he should not try to use it as an excuse to occupy the West Bank.
        Last edited by pamak; 22 Sep 17, 01:20.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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        • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
          2. The Palestinians backed and were backed by Egypt so yes they can.

          3. It doesn't matter if Israel is formidable. War isn't about fighting fair. Holding the West Bank is in their national security's best interest and neither they nor I see any reason to give it back.

          4. That line doesn't work since Islamist opposition to Israeli existence predates "the occupation". The urge among the theocrats for Jewish genocide warrants taking strong measures for safety.

          This all goes back to my bottom line: either the Palestinians renounce terrorism and accept Israel or I have no interest in changing my vote.
          2The Palestinians did not make any decision to close any Straits. And it is weird that somehow the Egyptinas GOT what they lost from the Six Day War (Sinai) but the Palestinians did not. So, the excuse that the Six Day War's political responsibilities somehow justifies occupation does not fly!

          3 Ohh, so are you saying now that regardless of the tactical situation we should accept occupation because war is not fair? So, why don't you say the same thing about targeting civilians? After all, even the western countries deliberately targeted civilians during WWII. Do you want me to post "Bomber" Harris' interview to make my point? Or do you want me to talk about the atomic bombs? So, what makes one thing acceptable because "war is not fair" and everybody acts according to his interests and the other not? When the American interests were to minimize the casualties of a conventional war in Japan, they incinerated dozens of thousand civilians...twice!


          4. Actually I gave evidence to show that what predates the Islamic resistance was the illegal massive movement of Jewish nationalist immigrants in an area where the vast majority of the native population was Palestinians. And notice that I did not just say it because the Palestinian propaganda says it. I gave links from the British surveys and from the UN to show the demographic situation at the time. And these immigrants were coming with an explicitly stated objective to establish a new state. But apparently,closing the Strait of Tiran justifies a preemptive war while bringing illegally hundreds of thousand of nationalist Jews in an attempt to change demographics and establish a new Israeli state in the Palestinian land does not justify a reactionary war. So, if you try to continue make excuses for the things that happen TODAY, I can play the game too.

          Still, this type of attitude cannot justify the Israeli occupation or the Palestinian violence TODAY which affects people who were not even alive at the time we are talking about.
          Nor does it justify the continuing expansion of settlements. Did you see the video I posted with the settler who was talking about his "motivation window" which had a view of a nearby Palestinian area?
          And did you see the part in which the Palestinian woman who was living near the settlers was forced to live within a cage because her Jewish "neighbors" were routinely throwing rocks at her house to pressure her to leave? And did you see the video when they were doing it when an IDF soldier was standing right next to them?

          Watch it , and then come back to explain again how the EGYPTIAN actions to block the Straight of Tiran justifies this behavior!

          Last edited by pamak; 22 Sep 17, 01:51.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pamak View Post
            2The Palestinians did not make any decision to close any Straits. And it is wierd that somehow the Egyptinas GOT what they lost from the Six Day War (Sinai) but the Palestinians did not. So, the excuse that the Six Day War somehow justifies occupation does not fly!

            3 Ohh, so are you saying now that regardless of the tactical situation we should accept occupation because war is not fair? So, why don't you say the same thing about targeting civilians? After all, even the western countries deliberately targeted civilians during WWII. Do you want me to post "Bomber" Harris' interview to make my point? Or do you want me to talk about the atomic bombs? So, what makes one thing acceptable because "war is not fair" and the other not?


            4. Actually I gave evidence to show that what predates the Islamic resistance was the illegal massive movement of Jewish nationalist immigrants in an area where the vast majority of the native population was Palestinians. And notice that I did not just say it because the Palestinian propaganda says it. I gave links from the British surveys and from the UN to show the demographic situation at the time. And these immigrants were coming with an explicitly stated objective to establish a new state. But apparently,closing the Strait of Tiran justifies a preemptive war while bringing illegally hundreds of thousand of nationalist Jews in an attempt to change demographics and establish a new Israeli state in the Palestinian land does not justify a reactionary war. So, if you try to continue make excuses for the things that happen TODAY, I can play the game too.

            Still, this type of attitude cannot justify the Israeli occupation or the Palestinian violence TODAY which affects people who were not even alive at the time we are talking about.
            Nor does it justify the continuing expansion of settlements. Did you see the video I posted with the settler who was talking about his "motivation window" which had a view of a nearby Palestinian area?
            And did you see the part in which the Palestinian woman who was living near the settlers was forced to live within a cage because her Jewish "neighbors" were routinely throwing rocks at her house to pressure her to leave? And did you see the video when they were doing it when an IDF soldier was standing right next to them?

            Watch it , and then come back to explain again how the EGYPTIAN actions to block the Straight of Tiran justifies this behavior!

            1) The Allies did NOT target civilians

            2) You gave no evidence : you only post terrorist propaganda .

            3)As the West Bank was a part of Jordan, it was not a Palestinian state .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pamak View Post
              1.I was VERY specific in my response:

              The Palestinians did NOT close any Straits of Tiran. THis is why I said that EVEN if one wants to talk about a preemptive war, he should not try to use it as an excuse to occupy the West Bank.
              WRONG : Jordan joined the anti Israel alliance and lost : if the Palestinians want to blame some one, they must first blame themselves and than Jordan .

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                2. You should read again the links about the 19th century pogroms in Russia and Poland which I offered in the previous post
                Notice also that the Greeks ARE Christians, and yes, there have been times when they became targets of extremist Muslims. The difference though is that such events do not create a syndrome of perpetual victim hood (at least in modern Greece). We have been slaughtering and getting slaughtered by Muslims for centuries, way before the Jews could even contemplate the idea of creating a Jewish State in the Middle East.
                Another attempt to derail the discussion

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  WRONG : Jordan joined the anti Israel alliance and lost : if the Palestinians want to blame some one, they must first blame themselves and than Jordan .
                  Wait! I thought you said JORDAN joined the anti-Israel alliance (which means attacked AFTER Israel attacked Egypt). So, how are the Palestinians responsible for that?
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                    Another attempt to derail the discussion
                    It is not about derailing. The reason I often use the Greek example is because there are many similarities with the case of the Jews in the ME. Both communities were massively reduced and both communities suffered occasionally from extremists. So, when I just hear somebody making claims about the massive lost of Jewish property in the ME and uses as his "proof" the reduction of the Jewish population there, I do not buy it. I know very well that both the Jews and the Arabs promote the propaganda. So, I am accepting only claims verified from third sources. So, the question is where are the UN reports or the humanitarian organizations or the lawsuits in international courts to expose this massive destruction of the Jewish properties in the ME?
                    Living witnesses can give every detail about these lost properties right down to the address and international organization or embassies can follow the information from such testimonies and verify them.
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                    • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                      1) The Allies did NOT target civilians

                      2) You gave no evidence : you only post terrorist propaganda .

                      3)As the West Bank was a part of Jordan, it was not a Palestinian state .
                      1

                      This is bomber Harris being very clear about the directives he had from the UK government



                      2. I did not post any Hamas or Hezbollah link. I always use third party sources for my evidence.

                      3 The fact that after 1948 it became part of Jordan and not a Palestinian state does not mean that it population was Jordanian and not Palestinians. Nor does it mean that this situation was recognized as normal. The Palestinians did not see themselves as being Jordanians. This is why the map of the partition plan had international borders between Jordan and the area we call today "West Bank"

                      4 I assume you did not answer my 4th point because you agree with me?
                      Last edited by pamak; 22 Sep 17, 05:00.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

                        This all goes back to my bottom line: either the Palestinians renounce terrorism and accept Israel or I have no interest in changing my vote.

                        It seems to me that you are saying that the Palestinians have not accepted Israel. Are you talking about the Israel within the 1967 borders or the "Greater Israel" which continues to expand in the West Bank? Because the first has been accepted. If it is the second, I see no reason for today's Palestinian resident to accept something that even the international community does not accept!
                        Meanwhile, I am neither Palestinian nor Jew, and I see no reason why third parties, such as the US, which want to play the role of the "honest broker" to act in a way that undermines the "honest" part. This means that every time one or another side makes something illegal or immoral against the other side, there must be consistency in the responses. It does not make sense to take concrete measures against all Palestinians when Palestinian mortar crews fire shells against civilians, and award billions of dollars to the state of Israel when settlers with the support of the state confiscate the Palestinian land. And regardless of what people like ljadw say, the bottom line is that the Palestinians in the West Bank did not confiscate any land or property in any country. On top of that, the irony is that the much more extremist Gaza does no have any Jews today while the moderate Palestinians in the West Bank seem to pay the cost of being moderates and see their territory continuously shrinking. Under these conditions, it is hard to argue that your position supports the elimination of terrorism. Even though this is your intention, you actually give the wrong signal...
                        Last edited by pamak; 22 Sep 17, 06:06.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                          It is not about derailing. The reason I often use the Greek example is because there are many similarities with the case of the Jews in the ME. Both communities were massively reduced and both communities suffered occasionally from extremists. So, when I just hear somebody making claims about the massive lost of Jewish property in the ME and uses as his "proof" the reduction of the Jewish population there, I do not buy it. I know very well that both the Jews and the Arabs promote the propaganda. So, I am accepting only claims verified from third sources. So, the question is where are the UN reports or the humanitarian organizations or the lawsuits in international courts to expose this massive destruction of the Jewish properties in the ME?
                          Living witnesses can give every detail about these lost properties right down to the address and international organization or embassies can follow the information from such testimonies and verify them.
                          The Jews did NOT occasionaly suffer from extremists : the Jewish community was and is still everyday targetted by the Muslims and by their non Muslim Quislings : In Paris Jews were murdered because they were Jews , not because they were Israeli citizens, what they were not .

                          In Yemen the Huti ordered the few remaining Jews to leave or to die ,although they had nothing to do with Israel .

                          In 1929 there was a pogrom in Afghanistan.

                          In Turkey the Thrace and Istanbul pogroms (1934,1955)

                          130 Jews were murdered in Libya in 1945 and 15 in 1947.

                          The Casablanco getto was attacked in 1942

                          180 Jews were murdered in Iraq in 191 and 50 in 1969

                          75 in Aleppo in 1947.


                          Sporadic, occasional violence ?


                          In Denmark and Canada imams are exhorting to exterminate the Jews.

                          Where are the examples of rabbis calling to exterminate the Muslims ?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            1

                            This is bomber Harris being very clear about the directives he had from the UK government



                            2. I did not post any Hamas or Hezbollah link. I always use third party sources for my evidence.

                            3 The fact that after 1948 it became part of Jordan and not a Palestinian state does not mean that it population was Jordanian and not Palestinians. Nor does it mean that this situation was recognized as normal. The Palestinians did not see themselves as being Jordanians. This is why the map of the partition plan had international borders between Jordan and the area we call today "West Bank"

                            4 I assume you did not answer my 4th point because you agree with me?

                            In 1948 Jordan occupied and annexed the West Bank,no Arab country protested, the Palestinians did not protest . After 1967 Israel withdrawed from Gaza and the Sinai, the result is that ISIS is operating in the Sinai and that Gaza has become a base of Muslim terrorists ;thus, why should Israel give up the West Bank ? If in 1967 the Palestinians had accepted the existence of Israel, there would today be a Palestinian state : but the Palestinians swore that they would destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews .

                            Thus, they have only themselves to blame .
                            Last edited by ljadw; 22 Sep 17, 07:10.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                              1





                              4 I assume you did not answer my 4th point because you agree with me?
                              I disagree totally with your point 4

                              Israel accepted the existence of a Palestinian state, the Palestinians did not accept the existence of Israel .

                              The Jewish emigration to Israel was not illegal : the Jews had much more rights on Israel than the Palestinians . 70 years ago the Palestinians refused the idea of 2 states, now they have only themselves to blame .

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                                The Jews did NOT occasionaly suffer from extremists : the Jewish community was and is still everyday targetted by the Muslims and by their non Muslim Quislings : In Paris Jews were murdered because they were Jews , not because they were Israeli citizens, what they were not .

                                In Yemen the Huti ordered the few remaining Jews to leave or to die ,although they had nothing to do with Israel .

                                In 1929 there was a pogrom in Afghanistan.

                                In Turkey the Thrace and Istanbul pogroms (1934,1955)

                                130 Jews were murdered in Libya in 1945 and 15 in 1947.

                                The Casablanco getto was attacked in 1942

                                180 Jews were murdered in Iraq in 191 and 50 in 1969

                                75 in Aleppo in 1947.


                                Sporadic, occasional violence ?


                                In Denmark and Canada imams are exhorting to exterminate the Jews.

                                Where are the examples of rabbis calling to exterminate the Muslims ?
                                Yes, sporadic!

                                If you want to see the whole world over a long period, you can create a big list of such violence. Such big lists STILL describes sporadic bursts of violence which does not justify claims that there were massive expulsions and loss of property. As I said, massive loss of property can be verified by third sources, such as reports from neutral embassies, UN organizations lawsuits in foreign countries to demand the freeze of Ara assets there and so on...
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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