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Monuments and Statues Thread - Defacement, Protection, Removal and Discussion

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  • #76
    I'm going to do something completely wild and unpredictable here: I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you at the same time.

    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
    Perhaps I am naive, but I have always looked at the confederate battle flag as representative of the common soldiers and armies of the confederacy rather than the policies of the confederacy itself. As such, I do not see it as a symbol of racism.
    I recognize that there are some logical contortions involved, but I think that I can have deep admiration for the soldiers, while not approving of slavery.
    By the same token, I have deep admiration for the sacrifices of soviet troops in WW2 even though I have none for their government.
    Perhaps the history of the future will change how we will view today's events, but the violent backlash against the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and '60s is what associated the CSA battle flag with the Klan and the forces of segregation. The violence of that era was quite public and unmistakable, and the association between the CSA battle flag and the cause of segregation was quite deliberate on the part of the Klan and their partisans. Indeed, virtually the whole of the Klan's jargon is meant to harken back to an era of damsels and maidens and white knights riding to their rescue. I must decidedly disagree sir: the forces of segregation have always sought justification for their actions -- and crimes -- in historical precedent, so it should come as no surprise that they also wrapped themselves in the Lost Cause as well as the colors of the late Confederacy.

    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
    I am largely following Grant's lead on this.
    I felt anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse.
    — Grant's opinion of Lee's surrender at Appomattox.
    With that I do agree, 100%. Johnny Reb gave so much, fought so valiantly, sacrificed so unquestionably, that I can't help but admire his effort, his élan, his dedication to his cause. But like Grant, I am compelled to view that cause as just bloody awful. What Johnny Reb had in military bearing, his lacked in political perspicacity: he was absolutely suckered by the planter class into giving his all for a fight which was in no way his. Johnny Reb fought and died for the big planters' economic interests, plain and simple.
    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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    • #77
      Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
      I'm going to do something completely wild and unpredictable here: I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you at the same time.



      Perhaps the history of the future will change how we will view today's events, but the violent backlash against the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and '60s is what associated the CSA battle flag with the Klan and the forces of segregation. The violence of that era was quite public and unmistakable, and the association between the CSA battle flag and the cause of segregation was quite deliberate on the part of the Klan and their partisans. Indeed, virtually the whole of the Klan's jargon is meant to harken back to an era of damsels and maidens and white knights riding to their rescue. I must decidedly disagree sir: the forces of segregation have always sought justification for their actions -- and crimes -- in historical precedent, so it should come as no surprise that they also wrapped themselves in the Lost Cause as well as the colors of the late Confederacy.



      With that I do agree, 100%. Johnny Reb gave so much, fought so valiantly, sacrificed so unquestionably, that I can't help but admire his effort, his élan, his dedication to his cause. But like Grant, I am compelled to view that cause as just bloody awful. What Johnny Reb had in military bearing, his lacked in political perspicacity: he was absolutely suckered by the planter class into giving his all for a fight which was in no way his. Johnny Reb fought and died for the big planters' economic interests, plain and simple.


      I agree. I recognize that the flag has been used as a symbol for racists rather than just the army.

      I also agree that johnny reb kind of got suckered, but will leave the other issues out as it is a discussion beyond this thread.
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by asterix View Post
        Quid pro Quo ...
        Since We're Tearing Down Offensive Statues, Here Are Locations of Three Lenin Statues in America

        EXCERPT:
        ...
        It's become very trendy to tear down offensive statues in America these days.

        According to previous IJR reporting, a Confederate statue in Durham, North Carolina, was ripped to the ground by a mob of progressive protesters. The protesters cited the statue's racist, violent symbolism for their actions.

        If we as a society are going to begin the process of tearing down statues of terrible people, there should be absolutely no argument against tearing down a number of Vladimir Lenin statues which proudly stand in America today. Here is a little background on the Soviet leader, just so we're all on the same page as to what a monster Lenin was, and why his likeness does not deserve space on any American street.

        Lenin killed millions of his own people, many in concentration camps, and openly sought the execution of political adversaries. He paved the way for Soviet occupation of free nations in the vicinity of Russia and established the one-party communist state, which led to unthinkable genocide and mass murder. In a previous article, IJR reported:
        ...
        http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/...m_medium=owned
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
        Present Current Events are the Future's History

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Surrey View Post
          The difference is 'many national heroes...'. The statues of the rebel leadersare commemorate those who fought against and sought to destroy the US.
          "destroy" only in reducing its size via seccession. The CSA was fighting to preserve itself as a separate/detached nation (variant of State's Rights) and had neither strategy or means to "destroy" the North, or conquer it.

          Sad irony in the ACW is that within another decade or two, advances in Industrialization and Mechanization would make keeping slaves on the 1860's scale uneconomical and unprofitable.

          Imagine if the ACW hadn't occurred and by the late 1870s to 1880s, many plantations of the South are upgrading with machinery to do the harvest and tending of cotton and are "turning loose(freeing)" many of their slaves to avoid the costs of keeping them. Where would these "freed" slaves go? Whom would take up their need for employment, support, etc. ?
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
          “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
          Present Current Events are the Future's History

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
            I agree. I recognize that the flag has been used as a symbol for racists rather than just the army.
            I'd say that the forces of segregation rather defined the debate in their day. Even if their numbers were small, they were so violent that they succeeded in frightening the rest of the Southern population into silence. They took the CSA battle flag by force and made it their own, and terribly few were going to step up and challenge them over it. Barring an equally dramatic campaign, it's going to be awfully hard to wrest the CSA battle flag away from that segregationist association.

            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
            I also agree that johnny reb kind of got suckered, but will leave the other issues out as it is a discussion beyond this thread.
            This is why we study history, we dig with little trowels at ancient battle fields, and we so rigorously debate our findings and conclusions: "he who controls the past controls the future." This is why a character like Jefferson Davis drives me nuts: a man whose character possessed a good many admirable traits -- but one of them wasn't a propensity for leaving well enough alone. It was Jeff Davis who launched the Lost Cause, the Reconstruction South's scholarly campaign to expunge from the historical record the ridiculousness and the pettiness and the mendacity inherent in secession's motive and the Confederacy's cause: the maintenance of slavery for the benefit of the big planters' economic interests and political and cultural position. It's from the Lost Cause that we get such nonsense as slavery's benignity and the notion that the Confederacy's leaders -- especially her general officers -- were men of only the highest moral fiber and nobility of character. My studies have confirmed than men like Lee and Longstreet and Joe Johnston were not only exceptional officers but also exceptional men, of that there is no doubt -- but the lionization of later years by the likes of Douglas Southall Freeman ("The Marble Model") was really over the top. It breached the line between history and mythology. As a matter of mere historical accuracy, the Lost Cause and its proponents must be resisted, and resisted mightily.

            But on another point -- the use of historical precedent in order to justify contemporary policy -- the Lost Cause has wrecked all kinds of evil. The Lost Cause was the high-brow South's historical justification for Jim Crow, and the "low-brow" South's use of wanton violence in order to promote and maintain segregation. The Lost Cause was the Klan's intellectual crutch for a century-long campaign of terrorism. I have a hard time imagining anything more wicked than that.

            The question that begs asking is, how would the political violence of segregation been possible if it weren't for the fact that the Lost Cause offered an intellectually and socially respectable veneer for terrorism?

            I suspect that it would not have been. Therefore, it's the Lost Cause and its proponents that must be attacked, academically speaking. Their curtain of respectability and intellectual honesty must be stripped away, so that all that's left are the racists behind the robes.

            Taking down statues and plaques of bronze won't do it, though. Telling the truth about the cruelties of chattel slavery and the real motives behind secession will, however. That truth is as needed now as ever before.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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            • #81
              A Chicago pastor has asked the Emanuel administration to remove the names of two presidents who owned slaves from parks on the South Side, saying the city should not honor slave owners in black communities. A bronze statue of George Washington on horseback stands at the corner of 51st and King Drive, at the northwest entrance to Washington Park.
              Bishop James Dukes, pastor of Liberation Christian Center, said he wants the statue gone, and he wants George Washington’s name removed from the park.
              http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/...-slave-owners/

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              • #82
                The call for the Taliban extermination of Civil War history by the Far Left continues. (Drudge.)

                As predicted, the name of streets, as well as the removal of the statues of George Washington, are now their targets.

                I wonder if they will soon call for the destruction of the grave sites of those that fought in the Confederacy as well?

                Chicago Pastor Asks Godfather To Remove George Washington Statue...
                Confederates taken down in Baltimore overnight...
                Brooklyn Army Base Urged to Rename Streets Honoring Generals...
                Threats Force Hollywood Cemetery to Remove Memorial...


                “Breaking News,”

                “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
                  This last one screams of hypocrisy. For the entire past year, the calls have been to remove the monument TO THE CEMETERIES as a more appropriate place for them to be displayed, and I had no problems with this. Now they want them gone from the cemeteries altogether as well.

                  Give an inch, take a mile?
                  You'll live, only the best get killed.

                  -General Charles de Gaulle

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by asterix View Post
                    This last one screams of hypocrisy. For the entire past year, the calls have been to remove the monument TO THE CEMETERIES as a more appropriate place for them to be displayed, and I had no problems with this. Now they want them gone from the cemeteries altogether as well.

                    Give an inch, take a mile?
                    Exactly! That's our 'Merican Left.
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                    “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                    Present Current Events are the Future's History

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Gettysburg Monuments...

                      Finally, some common sense. And these monuments are on federal property:

                      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/get...cid=spartandhp
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                      • #86
                        Not only arrests, but felony arrests.

                        I do hope that the vandals spend time in prison, and then they can meet 'Bubba'...

                        http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mor...cid=spartandhp
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post
                          Finally, some common sense. And these monuments are on federal property:

                          http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/get...cid=spartandhp
                          Why is this common sense?
                          John

                          Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                          • #88
                            If you have to ask . . . .
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JBark View Post
                              Why is this common sense?
                              Really?

                              Absolutely incredible.
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                                Why is this common sense?
                                Racists do not get to decide what is displayed on Federal property. Only the Feds can make that call.
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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