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Did Canada give $ 10 million to a convicted terrorist?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
    On the contrary, it has set an excellent precedent.

    For a measly $10m, Canada has bought back her honour and self-respect.
    For a mere $10m, Canada has repudiated torture and re-affirmed the rule of Law.
    For a paltry $10m, Canada has re-taken the high moral ground without the loss of a single life or limb.

    This does not mean Khadr was entirely innocent, but this is not about what he did (or did not) do on the battlefield. This is about what was done to him. He was tortured and the Government of Canada was both complicit and an active participant. For this, all Canadians (I am one) should feel ashamed.

    This payment tells the world that Canada is ruled by Law and, when transgressed, the Government apologises and moves forward. This decision should be trumpeted throughout the Western world as our strength and not our weakness. Our rights are protected by Law and even the Government is held accountable to Law. We reject torture and drumhead trials, whether they are held at Guantanamo or by Daesh.

    This action is just another opportunity to show the world that, once again, we are the good guys and sets us further apart from the savages behind Daesh. I am no fan of PM Trudeau, but he got this one right. This decision makes me just a little bit prouder to be a Canadian.
    Canada is a very fine nation. From what I can gather, you are fortunately a minority in your opinion.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      Canada is a very fine nation. From what I can gather, you are fortunately a minority in your opinion.
      I have mixed feelings, I think 10.5 M was too much, but the Supreme court did rule his charter rights were violated. The government did have to deal with it. I would also note that Canada was the last country to get their nationals out by a long shot, the previous Conservative Government dragged their feet on the matter despite pleas from the US government. Also other Gitmo detainees from Australia and the UK were also awarded millions of dollars in damages. The difference is that those governments kept the payouts low key. Finally Omar was the youngest detainee at Gitmo. It is not at all clear that he killed anyone, his confession was either from torture, or from simply to get out of Gitmo, either way the confession was obtained under duress.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
        It has set a terrible prescedent and has made the west look terribly weak. I have observed Mr Trudeau and he is a very dangerous man. A petty Castro loving social justice warrior is Prime Minister of one of the worlds greatest democracies. The Conservative Party needs to get its act together and fast.



        Got any suggestions????? The present leader of the New Conservative Party is a real dolt......

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bow View Post
          [/B]


          Got any suggestions????? The present leader of the New Conservative Party is a real dolt......
          Join the club

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          • #20
            Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
            Canada is a very fine nation. From what I can gather, you are fortunately a minority in your opinion.
            It is true that some polls claim 71% of Canadians are opposed to the payment for Khadr. However, I am one of those who actually read all the facts before arriving at a decision and do not simply act upon headlines.

            I think that most Canadians would change their minds if they were actually presented with the entire story before they answered a specific poll question.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
              Your link does not provide any evidence of the Government of Canada's complicity and participation. All it says is that Canadian officials talked to him at Guantanamo Bay and for some reason the Supreme Court ruled that his charter rights were violated.
              http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/khadr-...court-1.893059

              Details of the Supreme Court ruling

              It noted that CSIS officials obtained evidence from Khadr under "oppressive circumstances" during interrogations at Guantanamo Bay in 2003 and then shared that evidence with U.S. officials. The ruling said the interrogation "offends the most basic Canadian standards about the treatment of detained youth suspects," as:
              • Khadr was a minor and had been denied adult counsel.
              • He had been repeatedly deprived of sleep over a three-week period using a technique designed to make detainees more compliant.
              • The interrogation was designed to elicit statements about "the most serious criminal charges."
              • The information was to be shared with U.S. prosecutors.
              Active participation by Government of Canada officials in the interrogation process is likely the damning element. Had the GoC simply not been involved beyond attempting to repatriate Khadr, their culpability would likely have been reduced.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                On the contrary, it has set an excellent precedent.

                For a measly $10m, Canada has bought back her honour and self-respect.
                For a mere $10m, Canada has repudiated torture and re-affirmed the rule of Law.
                For a paltry $10m, Canada has re-taken the high moral ground without the loss of a single life or limb.
                No, Canada didn't. Maybe you and others can justify it as making yourselves feel better, but this guy was an enemy combatant in a declared war zone. He had nothing coming.

                Whether you agree with what was done with him as a POW or not, the "rule of Law" in warfare is only what each side involved is willing to agree to. The idea that there is some higher authority that can lay down the rules of war is an absurdity.
                Also, there is no "high moral ground" in warfare. It is and should be a nasty brutal business that no one in their right mind wants to willingly start or participate in except in the most extraordinary of circumstances.

                Today the West has lost sight of all that. The West seems to think that war is simply a bigger, better armed, version of a SWAT raid and that the "aggressor(s)" are to be arrested and tried in a court of law.
                That is an insane absurdity. War is about being brutal and doing horrible things to the enemy, mostly trying your hardest to kill all of them. It isn't a police activity. The enemy aren't criminals except to the extent the victors want to make them.

                Bottom line is: In war, the only true war crime is losing.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                  I have mixed feelings, I think 10.5 M was too much, but the Supreme court did rule his charter rights were violated. The government did have to deal with it.
                  The $10.5M is kind of the 'going rate' for governmental transgressions. Maher Arar is a Syrian-born Canadian. In 2002 he was sent by the United States to Syria as an accused terrorist. His only fault was being born in Syria and traveling through the United States. He was also awarded $10.5M for complicity of the RCMP for returning him to torture at the hands of Syrian officials.

                  "Arar was transferred to a prison, where he claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. "I was willing to do anything to stop the torture," he says."

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

                  Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                  I would also note that Canada was the last country to get their nationals out by a long shot, the previous Conservative Government dragged their feet on the matter despite pleas from the US government.
                  This is not fair. Khadr was in Guantanamo Bay since 2002. The Liberal governments of John Chretien and Paul Martin were also in power before the Conservative Stephen Harper administration.

                  Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                  Finally Omar was the youngest detainee at Gitmo. It is not at all clear that he killed anyone, his confession was either from torture, or from simply to get out of Gitmo, either way the confession was obtained under duress.
                  Under duress, an individual will say anything to make the pain stop. The charges against Khadr are murky, at best. The torture means that no future proceedings are even possible.

                  A Once & Final Parsing of the Legal Context for the Khadr Settlement

                  Canada had a whole raft of new, shiny, extraterritorial terror offences. They were available, and would not (all) have required adjudicating who did what in the 2002 firefight
                  To be clear, Khadr was on the battlefield and he made bang-bang. He is not a blameless victim the way Maher Arar was. Personally, I do not think he committed the acts for which he was charged, but was more than likely guilty of lesser offences.

                  There was some exceptionally clear writing in these articles. They are not littered with unintelligible legalese and easily understood by anyone searching for the facts behind this legal abomination:

                  Twelve Points about the Khadr Saga
                  Ottawa failed Omar Khadr: That’s why he deserves compensation

                  [CORRECTION] Khadr was detained in Guantanamo Bay since 2002 and not 1995
                  [CLARIFICATION] Arar was awarded $10.5M for complicity of the RCMP in his return to Syria
                  Last edited by Herman Hum; 20 Jul 17, 16:53.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Whether you agree with what was done with him as a POW or not, the "rule of Law" in warfare is only what each side involved is willing to agree to. The idea that there is some higher authority that can lay down the rules of war is an absurdity.
                    That is true of all legal systems. They work so long as we agree to let them work - or lack the power to challenge them. There is no higher authority but which mans crafts for himself, whether explicitly or not.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                      The $10.5M is kind of the 'going rate' for governmental transgressions. Maher Arar is a Syrian-born Canadian. In 2002 he was sent by the United States to Syria as an accused terrorist. His only fault was being born in Syria and traveling through the United States. He was also awarded $10.5M for complicity of the RCMP for returning him for torture at the hands of Syrian officials.

                      "Arar was transferred to a prison, where he claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. "I was willing to do anything to stop the torture," he says."

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
                      I agree mostly with your post. If we use Arar as the standard for settlement then I suggest that the Government was more to blame in the Arar case because they (RCMP) were more complicit in an completely innocent person being tortured severely in Syria. IN Omar's case he is not completely innocent nor was the government as complicit with his torture, nor was the torture the same as in Syria. Still, I agree with you that the Trudeau administration should be given credit for making a very unpopular decision to maintain the rule of law. Either the Charter of Rights and supreme court decisions mean something, or they don't. The measure of a government is not always doing the popular thing, but rather doing the unpopular thing because they believe it to be right.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                        For a measly $10m, Canada has bought back her honour and self-respect.
                        I'm not sure that you can buy honour for any price....

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                          I'm not sure that you can buy honour for any price....
                          The point of honor is that it is something that cannot be bought.

                          To say that Canada bought back her honor is both an insult to all Canadians who have died honorably in service to Canada to make that honor in the first place, and proves definitively how little honor remains.
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                          • #28
                            Saving Omar Khadr, ...

                            ... 'We plugged all the holes,' chopper medic recounts

                            TORONTO — 'This is human life'
                            Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press

                            https://ca.yahoo.com/news/saving-oma...143048156.html

                            "For years the battle-hardened and decorated American veteran wrestled with his conscience, with whether he'd done the right thing in saving the life of Omar Khadr, seen by many as a terrorist who profited from his crimes.

                            Now, watching the furor over the government's $10.5-million payout to Khadr from afar, Donnie Bumanglag wants to tell his story, offer a perspective born of bitter experience — one he admits may not be popular with many Canadians, or even some of his own former comrades in arms.

                            Bumanglag, of Lompoc, Calif., 36, has spent years coming to terms with his former life as an elite airborne medic supporting U.S. special forces during three missions to Afghanistan and Iraq. He's been haunted by flashbacks, frequently thrown back to that time in the summer of 2002, when he spent hours in the back of a helicopter frantically working on Khadr, then 15 years old and at the very edge of death.

                            "This is a human life. This is war. This is something that most people can't fathom, and they want to be real quick to give an opinion just because it makes them feel good about themselves," Bumanglag said. "(But) there's more to this story than just talking points."

                            The following account is based on interviews Bumanglag gave to The Canadian Press, as well as on a recent podcast he co-hosts in which he talks about saving Khadr.

                            Little guy on a door

                            Doc Buma, as the 21-year-old Ranger medic was known, was looking forward to leaving the remote area of Afghanistan in which he had been operating for more than a month and heading to Bagram for a shower and some downtime before redeploying to Kandahar.

                            Instead, as they flew toward Bagram that day in July 2002, a distress call came in. The MH-53 helicopter veered toward Khost and an encounter that would stay with him for years.

                            Edmund Sealey, then the Rangers platoon sergeant, remembers the call coming in with orders to divert and pick up an "enemy fighter" who had been shot.

                            "I was on the aircraft. We picked up that casualty in a firefight," Sealey, 47, now of Columbus, Ga., said from Afghanistan where he still works as a contractor. "With Buma being a Ranger medic, he's going to assist as soon as you get on board, enemy or friendly, it doesn't matter."

                            With the chopper gunners providing covering fire, they landed in a field. Sealey led the way, Bumanglag behind him, as they threaded their way through a suspected minefield, down a road, and connected with a group of U.S. special forces soldiers.

                            On what appeared to be a wooden door lay the wounded enemy fighter, shot twice by one of the elite Delta forces. The soldiers had found the casualty barely alive in a compound the Americans had pounded to rubble during a massive assault. One of their own, Sgt. Chris Speer, had been fatally hit by a grenade, and another, Layne Morris, blinded in one eye. It was apparent to the incoming medic that the Delta soldiers were in "some pretty severe distress" over the loss of their comrade.

                            "There's a look on somebody's face when the whole world went to **** 10 minutes ago and it's too much to process," Bumanglag says.

                            As he recalls, the soldiers gave him bare-bones biographical data on the casualty: The fighter had killed Speer. He was a Canadian who had been Osama bin Laden's "houseboy." They also told him to keep the high-value detainee alive because he would be a vital source of information and passed him off.

                            Bumanglag was now charged with saving Khadr, son of a high-ranking member of al-Qaida. He didn't know Khadr was 15 years old, but his youth struck him.

                            "I don't know if I can call him a little kid but he sure looked little to me. He's 80 pounds or something. He's a little guy who's on a door, basically," Bumanglag says.

                            They moved the patient up the ramp and the chopper took off. The medic immediately began working to save the boy, who was covered in blood and sand.

                            "Omar, with gunshot wounds and flex cuffs like an animal had been shot, didn't look human," Bumanglag recalls. "But moving in closer and working on him as a patient and seeing the facial features and seeing the skin pigmentation, those images always stuck with me."

                            Khadr, it turned out, bore a striking resemblance to one of Bumanglag's cousins, which bothered the young medic then, and for years after.

                            "All I seen was a kid that looks like a kid that I knew."

                            Everybody is jihad

                            As the chopper bobbed and weaved toward Bagram, Doc Buma worked to stabilize his disoriented, barely conscious patient, who was writhing and moaning in pain. At the other soldiers' insistence, Khadr's hands remained handcuffed behind his back out of concern he might turn violent.

                            Bumanglag's main task was to deal with Khadr's two gaping bullet exit wounds on his chest. His head raced with thoughts about whether he should save the life of this "terrorist," whether he'd have enough medical supplies for his own guys should something happen. He even pondered pushing the enemy fighter out the chopper and being done with it.

                            "He's rocking his body around everywhere," he says. "I took it as aggression. You get this idea that everybody is jihad and they're going to fight to the death."

                            Then there was his ego, he admits: the notion that saving this captive would earn him praise, would show he had what it took. So he kept working, trying to staunch the bleeding.

                            "My mission, my job was just to save him, keep him alive. There was no politics in it then. I was a young Ranger and this was my chance," Bumanglag says. "I worked on him for over two hours in the back of a helicopter as the sun went down. At the end, I'm working under finger light."

                            He kept working, and Khadr kept living, not saying anything, just making noises.

                            "His body indicated that he was a pretty brave guy. He fought for his life just as much as we fought to save him," Bumanglag says. "Some people have a will to live and some people don't. He definitely did."

                            They finally touched down at Bagram.

                            "We plugged all the holes and we tried to keep things viable," he says. "I pass him off and I don't know whether he's going to live or die."

                            What he did know was that Khadr hadn't died on his watch and it was therefore mission accomplished — one for which he would later be commended for by his superiors. It would take another year or so before Bumanglag learned that Khadr had survived.


                            Things thought about for years

                            Omar Khadr, born in September 1986 in Toronto spent several months recovering from his wounds at Bagram, where, from the moment he was conscious and able to speak, he underwent what were, by most accounts, some of the harshest interrogations the Americans had devised in the War on Terror.

                            A few months later, in October 2002, he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay. He had just turned 16.

                            It was in his early days at the infamous U.S. military prison in Cuba that Canadian intelligence officers went down to interrogate him. The Americans made the interviews conditional on having the information he provided passed on to them. The Canadians also knew the teen had been subjected to the "frequent flyer program," a brutal process of sleep deprivation designed to soften him up.

                            Video would surface years later of a weeping teen, now realizing the Canadian agents weren't there to help him, whimpering for his mother.

                            Khadr ultimately pleaded guilty to five war crimes in 2010 before a widely discredited military commission. He later disavowed his confession to having killed Speer, saying it was the only way the Americans would return him to Canada, which happened in 2012.

                            The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the federal government had violated Khadr's rights. The ruling underpinned the recent settlement of his lawsuit in which Ottawa apologized to him and, sources said, paid him $10.5 million.

                            "If you say you'd go through what he went through for $10 million, you're out of your mind, and that's the truth," Bumanglag says.

                            Khadr has said he no longer remembers the firefight and would not comment on Bumanglag's account.

                            'I'm glad I saved his life'

                            Doc Buma returned to his native California and left the military in 2003. He became a police officer, working anti-narcotics, for almost 10 years. Ultimately, the flashbacks, the post-traumatic stress bested him and he retired as a cop about five years ago. He studied educational psychology, he said, as part of trying to sort himself out.

                            He took up co-hosting a podcast, Sick Call, in which he and a fellow vet talk about a variety of issues, including topics related to the military and law enforcement. In one recent episode, he talks about Khadr. It's all part educating others, part therapy for himself, he says.

                            The years since his days in the military, when he was ready to drop everything at a moment's notice and heed the call of duty wherever it took him, he says, have afforded him time to grow up, to gain some perspective on war, on his life as a soldier, on demonizing people he has never met or with whom he has no personal quarrel.

                            "I've been on the worst combat missions. I bought into the ideology. Now it's time for reflection," he says.

                            Time and again, he is careful to make clear he intends no disrespect to Speer's relatives or to Morris and empathizes with what they have lost.

                            "Omar lost his eye, too. I don't know how much more symbolic that can be."

                            At the same time, he is clear that Speer and Morris were grown men who had signed on the line to become elite professional soldiers, knowing the risks of their jobs.

                            On the other hand, Bumanglag also makes it clear he empathizes with the young Canadian who was taken by his father to another country and thrown into an ideologically motivated war over which he had no control.

                            As a married father of four, Bumanglag says it's naive to believe Khadr could somehow have just walked away from the compound his father had sent him to. More to the point, he says, had he found himself as Khadr did that fateful day in July — under heavy bombardment with the fighting men dead and the enemy closing in for the kill, he likely would not have hesitated to throw a grenade.

                            "What happens if the shoe is on the other foot? This is the scenario that I've played in my head," Bumanglag says, his mind turning to those who are furious at the Canadian government's settlement with Khadr.

                            "They can be upset but the reality is that they don't understand the full story. I don't think any of us do."

                            Doc Buma says he no longer frets that he should have let Khadr die.

                            "Everybody may hate him but I'm glad I saved his life," he says. "It just wasn't his time then."
                            "I am Groot"
                            - Groot

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                            • #29
                              For a measly $10m, Canada has bought back her honour and self-respect.
                              For a mere $10m, Canada has repudiated torture and re-affirmed the rule of Law.
                              For a paltry $10m, Canada has re-taken the high moral ground without the loss of a single life or limb.
                              So all a nation has to do is buy off terrorists to become the saviors of the world?

                              "Honor and self-respect" has never been for sale, and it still isn't.

                              I wonder how many needy Canadians could have been helped with that $10.5 million, and how many more terrorists Canada funded by paying it?

                              Canada's action is a validation of terrorism as a way to extort the West into giving up its own sovereignty.

                              No thanks.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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