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A fix for the opioid epidemic, Let addicts die.

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
    When did anyone blame minorities?

    I was not talking specifically about you. I was talking in general. Just browse the conservative media and see it for yourself. Here is one example, from Trump's speech as it was analyzed in a Sean Hannity's article @ FOXNews.com

    Sean Hannity: Trump's warning on illegal immigrants proves grimly prophetic

    "The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else's problems,” then-candidate Trump said nearly two years ago. “When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    (again, I cannot post the link because I am below 100 posts, so I just give directions about how to access the information)

    Now try to find how often articles in conservative media criticize the professionals in the medical field about the opioid marketing and prescription practices. This is why I argue that we must have an open mind and see the whole problem and not just the angles that fit to our ideological view. Notice, that I never said or implied that better border security is not a sensible measure which can be used to battle the opioid epidemic. What I have argued is that it is not enough, and as long as we do not see the broader picture with all the variables that contribute to this crisis, the problem will not be solved.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #92
      So your argument is that because particular news outlets don't blame doctors and pharmacists for a problem, that conservatives must be blaming minorities.

      And a very out of context comment by Trump, who wasn't referring to the opioid issue.

      hmm????
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #93
        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        So your argument is that because particular news outlets don't blame doctors and pharmacists for a problem, that conservatives must be blaming minorities.

        And a very out of context comment by Trump, who wasn't referring to the opioid issue.

        hmm????
        No! My argument is that we have been in this drug crisis because all these years we refuse to address the whole problem and see all the factors involved. So, after decades of draconian laws against drugs and anti-drug police actions as part of our declared "war" against drugs, we have somehow managed to find ourselves today in an opioid epidemic which is so severe that today affects even the whites and is one of the main factors which contribute to the reduction of life expectancy of the middle-aged white Americans. This life expectancy reduction is unprecedented in our modern history, and unique in the community of developed nations! It is obvious that we need to update our tactics in this war against drugs!

        As for Trump's quote, he talked about "drugs" which includes anything from heroin to opioids. In this environment of lack of information, where medical professionals do not inform the public, and (mostly) conservative journalists or politicians refuse to see any other contributing factors to the drug problem than black and latino gangs, it is natural to have many people who still do not know that most overdose deaths come from prescription opioids because they have been accustomed to hearing that the drug problem is just an issue of gang crime which can only be solved by police or border security actions. And this public attitude does not create enough pressure to force people to disturb a system in the medical field which has been very convenient and profitable for some.
        Last edited by pamak; 09 Jul 17, 17:16.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
          Addiction has everything to do with being stupid. They chose to try the drugs that are killing them. No one forced them to.

          As long as there are people there'll be addicts? True but we'll be saving money and darwinism will ensure the population stays low because they'll be dying off faster. Sounds capitalism? You bet your ass it does and that's why I like it. If they're too stupid to stay off drugs there's no point in wrecking ourselves trying to save them.

          Easy for you to be generous with our money but not as much for us. And how hard should you fight to keep a house from burning down when the owner is actively trying to burn it down himself?
          .... and knowing when to "fold 'em" is the better part of keeping your government safe from going broke trying to save the unknowing clods

          GG.
          "The will of a section rooted in self interest, should not outweigh the vital interests of a whole people." -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain-

          "Fanatics of any sort are dangerous." -GG-

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
            .... and knowing when to "fold 'em" is the better part of keeping your government safe from going broke trying to save the unknowing clods

            GG.

            If a patient does not have a clear appreciation of the prescription drug problem and thinks that drugs kill mostly those involved in illicit activities, it is natural that he will be more willing to accept the risk of using opioid prescription drugs. I say that the current situation must change and people should be aware of the whole picture of the prescription opioid epidemic which is at the center of the drug problem we have. Does anybody want to argue that there is no need for such a change? If you do, I am curious to hear why you think so.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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            • #96
              Originally posted by pamak View Post
              If a patient does not have a clear appreciation of the prescription drug problem and thinks that drugs kill mostly those involved in illicit activities, it is natural that he will be more willing to accept the risk of using opioid prescription drugs. I say that the current situation must change and people should be aware of the whole picture of the prescription opioid epidemic which is at the center of the drug problem we have. Does anybody want to argue that there is no need for such a change? If you do, I am curious to hear why you think so.
              You keep insisting these are prescription drugs, totally disregarding the fact that the street form of Fentanyl that is more potent than the pharmaceutical products is being made in illegal Labs!
              We are addressing a different issue. The street version of Fentanyl is not the same as the drug used by legitimate medical professionals.
              This stuff I should being marketed to heroine addicts, it's not as if people are walking out of the operating room and looking for it, dealers are buying it cheaper than heroin and selling it to their clients.
              Read Number 2, then read it again and again until it seeped In!
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              About Us
              Medicine Abuse Project
              Fentanyl and Synthetic Opioids: 5 Things You Need to Know
              APRIL 20, 2017 BY PAT – PSYCHOTHERAPIST & PARTNERSHIP PARENT COACH
              Fentanyl vs. Heroin: Two potentially fatal dosages
              Takeaways
              Fentanyl is 50 to 100 times more potent than heroin. The image above shows two potentially fatal dosages of fentanyl and heroin (photo: New Hampshire State Police Forensic Laboratory via NYT).
              Deaths from fentanyl and other synthetic opioids (not including methadone), rose a staggering 72 percent in just one year, from 2014 to 2015. Government agencies and officials of all types are rightly concerned by what some are describing as the third wave of our ongoing opioid epidemic.

              As a concerned parent, whose top priority is keeping your child safe — and alive — the following are the most important things to understand about fentanyl.

              1. Fentanyl is 50 to 100 times more potent than heroin or morphine.
              It is a schedule II prescription drug typically used to treat patients with severe pain or to manage pain after surgery. It is also sometimes used to treat patients with chronic pain who are physically tolerant to other opioids. In its prescription form, fentanyl is known by such names as Actiq®, Duragesic® and Sublimaze®.

              2. It is relatively cheap to produce, increasing its presence in illicit street drugs.
              Dealers use it to improve their bottom line. According to a report from the Office of National Drug Control Policy, evidence suggests that fentanyl is being pressed into pills that resemble OxyContin, Xanax, hydrocodone and other sought-after drugs, as well as being cut into heroin and other street drugs. A loved one buying illicit drugs may think they know what they’re getting, but there’s a real risk of it containing fentanyl, which can prove deadly.

              3. Naloxone (Narcan) will work in case of overdose, but extra doses may be needed.
              Because fentanyl is far more powerful than other opioids, the standard 1-2 doses of naloxone may not be enough. Calling 911 is the first step in responding to any overdose, but in the case of a fentanyl-related overdose the help of emergency responders, who will have more naloxone, is critical. Learn more about naloxone and responding to opioid overdose >>

              4. Even if someone could tell a product had been laced with fentanyl, it may not prevent their use.
              Some individuals claim they can tell the difference between product that has been laced with fentanyl and that which hasn’t, but overdose statistics would say otherwise. Some harm reduction programs are offering test strips to determine whether heroin has been cut with fentanyl, but that knowledge may not be much of a deterrent to a loved one who just spent their last dollar to get high.

              5. Getting a loved one into treatment is more critical than ever.

              If you need help in determining a course of action, please reach out to one of our parent counselors by calling 1-855-DRUGFREE. Learn more about all the ways you can connect with our free and confidential services and begin getting one-on-one help.

              Sources: National Institutes on Drug Abuse, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Drug Enforcement Administration.
              https://drugfree.org/parent-blog/fen...ngs-need-know/
              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                You keep insisting these are prescription drugs, totally disregarding the fact that the street form of Fentanyl that is more potent than the pharmaceutical products is being made in illegal Labs!
                We are addressing a different issue. The street version of Fentanyl is not the same as the drug used by legitimate medical professionals.
                This stuff I should being marketed to heroine addicts, it's not as if people are walking out of the operating room and looking for it, dealers are buying it cheaper than heroin and selling it to their clients.
                Read Number 2, then read it again and again until it seeped In!

                https://drugfree.org/parent-blog/fen...ngs-need-know/
                Where did I disregard the seriousness of Fentanyl use or the seriousness f illegal labs and illegal drugs? My argument has never been that illegal opioid or illegal labs or Fentanyl do not present a serious problem. My argument is that the opioid epidemic must be seen in its totality and when we have studies to show that the group that has suffered mostly by the use of prescription drugs is the middle-aged white Americans, it does not make sense to believe that street illegal opioids are responsible for this effect. I do not see how middle-aged white Americans should be more vulnerable to the products of illegal labs and trafficking than middle-aged black or middle-aged latinos which statistically belong to demographic groups with tighter connections to illicit drug activities.

                In addition, there is no basis to believe that a consumption of perfectly legal and highly addictive prescription drugs which has tripled since the 1990's will not have a severe effect in the number of patients who eventually become addictive. It is natural to expect that with or without illegal labs or drugs, such a high consumption of legal prescription drugs will lead to high rates of addiction and overdose deaths. So, why should we refuse the obvious step that we should take to greatly reduce the prescription of legal opioids which are manufactured in perfectly legal labs and promoted by perfectly legal professionals of the pharma or medical industry?

                Your line of though is quite bizarre. In essense you want to believe that if a demographic group (white middle-aged Americans) experiences high rates of deaths from overdose during a period in which the legal consumption and sale of legal opioid medicine has tripled, this should not be attributed to such legal consumption because there are illicit opioids in the street. Sorry, but I do not see how your theory can work.
                Last edited by pamak; 11 Jul 17, 02:21.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                • #98
                  And here is another link which verifies that doctors play a key part in this epidemic

                  https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2...n-opioids.html



                  Physicians are a leading source of prescription opioids for the highest-risk users

                  Finding highlights important role physicians can play in reducing prescription drug overdoses



                  Most people who abuse prescription opioid drugs get them for free from a friend or relative – but those at highest risk of overdose are as likely to get them from a doctor’s prescription, CDC researchers reported today in a research letter, “Sources of Prescription Opioid Pain Relievers by Frequency of Past-Year Nonmedical Use: United States, 2008-2011,” in the Journal of the American Medical Association Internal Medicine (JAMA Internal Medicine)...
                  In other words, even if we make an absurd assumption and claim that all family and relatives who provide opioids to victims of overdose get the prescription drugs from illicit activities, labs and dealers, we still cannot avoid the simple fact that those at highest risk of overdose are as likely to get the opioids from a doctor’s prescription.
                  In reality, doctors have an even bigger participation in the supply of opioids that are associated with overdoses because many of the family members and relatives who give or sell their prescription drugs to the victims, acquired their medication legally from physicians. It is therefore obvious that doctors prescribe too many opioids to people who do not actually need the opioid prescription for themselves. If you believe that this should continue, give me an argument to explain why. Talking about the role of illicit drugs or the personal responsibility of the addicted patients does not support any argument for accepting the current practices in the medical field regarding the prescription of the legal opioids.
                  Last edited by pamak; 11 Jul 17, 03:59.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                    While I'm not sure what the solution is, I have a theory on one of the major, underlying causes is. A lot of the epidemic seems to be occurring in the old Midwestern Rust Belt and Appalachia. Both these areas are historically known for mining and heavy industry where sons followed their fathers, uncles and grandfathers into the mill/mine/plant straight out of high school. Even without a college degree, if they worked hard, they could be productive middle class Americans. Now, that is no longer possible. Due to automation, downsizing and outsourcing overseas, there are very few of those jobs left. So, the offspring feel despondent and without hope of succeeding, so they turn to drugs to numb themselves. Many don't have the intelligence to go to college and higher education wasn't stressed in a lot of these families and communities. It doesn't help that many of the old heavy industries (US Steel in particular) ran their towns in the old days and kept any other employer who would compete with them for the labor pool.
                    My second theory is the difference between working- and middle-class. It's not so much how much money you earn, but your outlook on life. Working class people tend to spend their money on the latest toys and are living paycheck to paycheck. Middle class people tend to save for what's important and want their children to do better, not just follow them into the plant.
                    I'm not a psychologist but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn. I'm glad that I'm old enough to have gotten in on the tail end of the "good times" and will be able to comfortably semi-retire within a year.
                    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...ths-of-despair

                    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brook...nority-groups/

                    I think you are on the right path here

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                    • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                      Addiction is a choice. Sure

                      Not to mention that there is a number of studies suggesting that one does indeed have a higher risk of this or that depending on genetics.

                      Cancer, how healthy lifestyle do you lead? Something as simple as eating meat rises your risk of getting cancer.

                      Addicts always find reasons, like you do...
                      its not all or nothing

                      many people have addictive personalities but that is why they stay away from addictive meds
                      Ive been in practice 10yrs and a LOT of my patients do not want opoids for that reason
                      that being said doctors esp in the past have been very lax in prescribing narcs and that had led to a lot of people taking pain meds much longer than needed
                      lot has to change
                      1- drug companies that make them should be heavily taxed and tightly regulated
                      2-Docs should only prescribe for strict guidelines, and in their defence anyone specifically asking for opioids should be flagged and sent to mental health
                      3- Pain is NOT A VITAL SIGN, STOP ASKING THE PAIN SCORE people.
                      4-People should have better access and coverage to PT and rehab so there is no excuse to use these meds > 2 weeks
                      5-zero tolerence for gang members who sell drugs ( not talking about the kids who share them with friends ) but hardcore dealers.kill em all , they are like terrorists

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