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  • #76
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    One question about prescription overdoses if I may:

    Are the people overdosing the same people prescribed the medication?

    IOW

    Was it THEIR prescription, or was it an ILLEGAL NARCOTIC when they consumed it?

    As I've stated before and the "it's society's fault" crowd doesn't seem to hear, doctors are under very strict guidelines, and so are pharmacists. Yes there was a lot of fast and loose prescribing in the past. Now, the doctors and pharmacies have a lot of rules, and tracking in place. And detectives are keeping track of it as well and looking for the pill shoppers and other addict types, as well as doctors overprescribing or even dealing. We just locked up a doctor at the cancer center for trafficking pills....and in the process made a major child porn bust against his son (search warrants are amazing things when people are really stupid). Talking to doctors in the US and being friends with them, they don't like to prescribe narcotics at all, they will turn away people who demand them, and typically they want you to be an established patient before you get them.
    The point is that the data show that consumption has tripled since 1990. The US also consumes much more prescription drugs than other developed countries. So, apparently doctors' behavior with respect to prescribing drugs has changed over the last decades which shows immediately a connection to market issues. Apparently, in 2017 doctors do not turn away as many people who demand opioids as in the 1990s.

    It is also scandalous to see that the medical professionals do not do enough to inform the crowd about this serious problem. Even though prescription drug overdose deaths is now the number one reason of accidental deaths. many people still do not know about it. Compare this attitude to, say, the publicity of the campaign against smoking or the publicity of the issue of gun violence. The medical professionals do have a responsibility to inform the public but they have failed to take the appropriate measures. As for the actual drugs used in overdose cases by people on prescription, it is both prescription drugs and illegal drugs. For example, according to drugabuse.gov (webpage: How is heroin linked to prescription drug abuse?)

    "Harmful health consequences resulting from the abuse of opioid medications that are prescribed for the treatment of pain, such as Oxycontin®, Vicodin®, and Demerol®, have dramatically increased in recent years. For example, unintentional poisoning deaths from prescription opioids quadrupled from 1999 to 2010 and now outnumber those from heroin and cocaine combined....

    Research now suggests that abuse of these medications may actually open the door to heroin use. Nearly half of young people who inject heroin surveyed in three recent studies reported abusing prescription opioids before starting to use heroin."

    In any case, the type of drug used does not change the fact that we should make reforms to reduce the chances of having people become addicted to opioids. And this is related to the "social-economic" factors in the medical field. The acceptance of personal responsibility does not mean that we should ignore the culture in the medical field. Nor does it make sense to hear people bashing the Chicago's urban culture when they talk about the victims of gun violence there but somehow refusing to accept the corrosive role of the current market-oriented culture in the healthcare industry which has actually produced much more victims than all gun violence (homicides) in the US combined!

    As for the question of if the victims are actually the ones who were prescribed the medication, it is probably true in most cases considering that we are talking about highly addictive substances. In addition, the links I posted earlier show a connection (correlation) between high mortality as a result of prescription drug overdoses and chronic pain. Plus, we have seen how these overdoses affect mostly white middle-aged Americans by increasing their mortality. There is no reason to believe that trade of prescription drugs should affect mostly white middle-aged Americans. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to see white middle-aged patients of opioid prescription becoming addicted in higher rates and suffering higher deaths from overdoses.

    But even If we assume that in most or in many cases the prescription drugs are not consumed by the actual patient, we still have to address the issue of a fast increase of availability of opioids. So, either the doctors prescribe them to people who do not actually need them or they prescribe too much to enable the patients to trade the surplus.
    Last edited by pamak; 07 Jul 17, 17:08.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #77
      Originally posted by pamak View Post
      The point is that the data show that consumption has tripled since 1990. The US also consumes much more prescription drugs than other developed countries. So, apparently doctors' behavior with respect to prescribing drugs has changed over the last decades which shows immediately a connection to market issues. Apparently, in 2017 doctors do not turn away as many people who demand opioids as in the 1990s.

      It is also scandalous to see that the medical professionals do not do enough to inform the crowd about this serious problem. Even though prescription drug overdose deaths is now the number one reason of accidental deaths. many people still do not know about it. Compare this attitude to, say, the publicity of the campaign against smoking or the publicity of the issue of gun violence. The medical professionals do have a responsibility to inform the public but they have failed to take the appropriate measures. As for the actual drugs used in overdose cases by people on prescription, it is both prescription drugs and illegal drugs. For example, according to drugabuse.gov (webpage: How is heroin linked to prescription drug abuse?)

      "Harmful health consequences resulting from the abuse of opioid medications that are prescribed for the treatment of pain, such as Oxycontin®, Vicodin®, and Demerol®, have dramatically increased in recent years. For example, unintentional poisoning deaths from prescription opioids quadrupled from 1999 to 2010 and now outnumber those from heroin and cocaine combined....

      Research now suggests that abuse of these medications may actually open the door to heroin use. Nearly half of young people who inject heroin surveyed in three recent studies reported abusing prescription opioids before starting to use heroin."

      In any case, the type of drug used does not change the fact that we should make reforms to reduce the chances of having people become addicted to opioids. And this is related to the "social-economic" factors in the medical field. The acceptance of personal responsibility does not mean that we should ignore the culture in the medical field. Nor does it make sense to hear people bashing the Chicago's urban culture when they talk about the victims of gun violence there but somehow refusing to accept the corrosive role of the current market-oriented culture in the healthcare industry which has actually produced much more victims than all gun violence (homicides) in the US combined!

      As for the question of if the victims are actually the ones who were prescribed the medication, it is probably true in most cases considering that we are talking about highly addictive substances. In addition, the links I posted earlier show a connection (correlation) between high mortality as a result of prescription drug overdoses and chronic pain. Plus, we have seen how these overdoses affect mostly white middle-aged Americans by increasing their mortality. There is no reason to believe that trade of prescription drugs should affect mostly white middle-aged Americans. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to see white middle-aged patients of opioid prescription becoming addicted in higher rates and suffering higher deaths from overdoses.

      But even If we assume that in most or in many cases the prescription drugs are not consumed by the actual patient, we still have to address the issue of a fast increase of availability of opioids. So, either the doctors prescribe them to people who do not actually need them or they prescribe too much to enable the patients to trade the surplus.
      Or grandpa and grandma really need their pain killers and muscle relaxers. But they are stolen by dirt bags. Now grandma and grandpa are in agony because they don't have their meds.
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
      Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
        Or grandpa and grandma really need their pain killers and muscle relaxers. But they are stolen by dirt bags. Now grandma and grandpa are in agony because they don't have their meds.
        No!

        As I said, one of the reasons to discount this scenario as one of the most common reasons for the opioid crisis is because it cannot explain why overdose deaths by prescription drugs are mostly a problem of white middle-aged Americans. This is like believing that the parents (middle-aged Americans) are likely to steal the medicine from grandma or grandpa. It makes more sense to believe that culprits in such stealing would be mostly grandchildren.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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        • #79
          It seems to me that the problem is more working class than middle class.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
            It seems to me that the problem is more working class than middle class.
            I think this is true. The study I mentioned talked about middle-aged Americans (men and woman) as the demographic group which experienced a negative impact on its mortality as a result of the opioid epidemic. I do not know if the study mentions somewhere the economic profile of the victims, but I assume that it is related to their economic situation since the less resources an addict has, the more difficult it is for him to escape from his addiction. Detox centers cost money and time which working people often do not have. However, I do not believe that the opioid crisis can be simplified to a statement that it is mostly a problem of the working class. I am saying this because the middle-class does not include just middle-aged white Americans. There are also other characteristics related to this demographic group which contribute to the opioid epidemic and which I mentioned in previous posts, such as access to the medical field and perhaps some modest financial capability which make them capable and willing to spend part of their salary for opioid use even in relatively mild cases. This leads to an overall unusually high consumption which in turn produces more addicts.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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            • #81
              While I'm not sure what the solution is, I have a theory on one of the major, underlying causes is. A lot of the epidemic seems to be occurring in the old Midwestern Rust Belt and Appalachia. Both these areas are historically known for mining and heavy industry where sons followed their fathers, uncles and grandfathers into the mill/mine/plant straight out of high school. Even without a college degree, if they worked hard, they could be productive middle class Americans. Now, that is no longer possible. Due to automation, downsizing and outsourcing overseas, there are very few of those jobs left. So, the offspring feel despondent and without hope of succeeding, so they turn to drugs to numb themselves. Many don't have the intelligence to go to college and higher education wasn't stressed in a lot of these families and communities. It doesn't help that many of the old heavy industries (US Steel in particular) ran their towns in the old days and kept any other employer who would compete with them for the labor pool.
              My second theory is the difference between working- and middle-class. It's not so much how much money you earn, but your outlook on life. Working class people tend to spend their money on the latest toys and are living paycheck to paycheck. Middle class people tend to save for what's important and want their children to do better, not just follow them into the plant.
              I'm not a psychologist but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn. I'm glad that I'm old enough to have gotten in on the tail end of the "good times" and will be able to comfortably semi-retire within a year.

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              • #82
                This just in.....

                Opioid prescriptions dropped for the first time in the modern drug crisis

                The number of prescriptions for opioids written by health care providers declined between 2012 and 2015, the government reported Thursday, introducing a glimmer of progress in efforts to quell the worst drug epidemic in U.S. history.

                The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said prescriptions for highly addictive painkillers such as oxycodone dropped 13.1 percent over the three-year period, from 81.2 per 100 people to 70.6.

                But Anne Schuchat, the CDC's acting director, expressed tempered optimism about the first national decline in opioid prescriptions that the CDC has reported since the crisis began in the late 1990s. She said the prescription rate is still triple the level it was in 1999 and four times as much as it is in some European countries. Even at the reduced prescribing rate, she said, enough opioids were ordered in 2015 to keep every American medicated round-the-clock for three weeks.

                "It looks a little bit better, but you really have to put that in context," Schuchat said in an interview. "We're still seeing too many people get too much for too long."
                The number of prescriptions for opioids written by health care providers declined between 2012 and 2015, the government reported Thursday, introducing a glimmer of progress in efforts to quell the worst drug epidemic in U.S. history.

                The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said prescriptions for highly addictive painkillers such as oxycodone dropped 13.1 percent over the three-year period, from 81.2 per 100 people to 70.6.

                But Anne Schuchat, the CDC's acting director, expressed tempered optimism about the first national decline in opioid prescriptions that the CDC has reported since the crisis began in the late 1990s. She said the prescription rate is still triple the level it was in 1999 and four times as much as it is in some European countries. Even at the reduced prescribing rate, she said, enough opioids were ordered in 2015 to keep every American medicated round-the-clock for three weeks.

                "It looks a little bit better, but you really have to put that in context," Schuchat said in an interview. "We're still seeing too many people get too much for too long."
                http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifest...707-story.html
                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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                • #83
                  Somehow we must find a way to blame pharmaceutical companies and doctors for the problem...
                  Ignoring the fact that many if not most opioid addicts are just jumping on the flavor of the month doper merry go round, Heroin addicts predate these new drugs like Fentanyl, some started out with meth, cocaine etc.
                  I think you have a much great chance of becoming an addict if you hang around with other addicts, then by going to your doctor.
                  Drug abusers by definition abuse drugs.
                  That is not to deny that anyyusing legally prescribed pain management drugs will not become dependent on them, but in those cases there was a lack of intention to seek out a substance for the next rush.
                  Lack of opportunities for employment can be a factor, Idle hands are the devils work shop..
                  Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                  Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    Somehow we must find a way to blame pharmaceutical companies and doctors for the problem...
                    Ignoring the fact that many if not most opioid addicts are just jumping on the flavor of the month doper merry go round, Heroin addicts predate these new drugs like Fentanyl, some started out with meth, cocaine etc.
                    I think you have a much great chance of becoming an addict if you hang around with other addicts, then by going to your doctor.
                    Drug abusers by definition abuse drugs.
                    That is not to deny that anyyusing legally prescribed pain management drugs will not become dependent on them, but in those cases there was a lack of intention to seek out a substance for the next rush.
                    Lack of opportunities for employment can be a factor, Idle hands are the devils work shop..
                    No sir! It is not about finding a way to blame pharmaceutical companies and doctors. It is about seeing the broader picture of opioid epidemic. This means that we should acknowledge that first, it is not just an issue of minorities and second that there are many factors that contribute to the problem. Blaming ONLY the victims is what brought us here. Effective solutions can come only if we see all the contributing to the problem factors. For example, professionals need to update their prescription practices. The article you found mentions that despite the reduction in opioid consumption, "... prescription rate is still triple the level it was in 1999 and four times as much as it is in some European countries." This has consequences! In addition, the American medical organizations (AMA, etc) need to acknowledge the problem and inform the public through a vigorous public campaign. As long as they do not do it, and continue prescribe very high quantities of opioids, it is natural to see criticism against them. As for the pharmaceutical companies, even Trump went against them...
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      No sir! It is not about finding a way to blame pharmaceutical companies and doctors. It is about seeing the broader picture of opioid epidemic. This means that we should acknowledge that first, it is not just an issue of minorities and second that there are many factors that contribute to the problem. Blaming ONLY the victims is what brought us here. Effective solutions can come only if we see all the contributing to the problem factors. For example, professionals need to update their prescription practices. The article you found mentions that despite the reduction in opioid consumption, "... prescription rate is still triple the level it was in 1999 and four times as much as it is in some European countries." This has consequences! In addition, the American medical organizations (AMA, etc) need to acknowledge the problem and inform the public through a vigorous public campaign. As long as they do not do it, and continue prescribe very high quantities of opioids, it is natural to see criticism against them. As for the pharmaceutical companies, even Trump went against them...
                      When did anyone blame minorities?
                      Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                      Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        There is a new "rush" that has become the rage for hardcore junkies, intentionally OD in front of hospitals and Fire stations or dial 911 to report a overdose then shoot up before EMTs arrives so they can get shot up with Narcan....sounds redicules, one Sheriff has never allowed his deputies to carry Narcan.

                        Paramedics and firefighters routinely carry the easy-to-administer medication in their vehicles. For police officers in the nation's hardest hit areas, like southwest Ohio, the Food and Drug Administration-approved nasal spray, known by the brand name Narcan, can be as common as handcuffs. Even some librarians have learned to use the drug to revive people who overdose in their stacks.
                        But Richard K. Jones, the sheriff of Butler County, Ohio, raised eyebrows recently when he said that his deputies will never carry the medication.

                        “We don't do the shots for bee stings, we don't inject diabetic people with insulin. When does it stop?” he told The Washington Post.

                        “I'm not the one that decides if people live or die. They decide that when they stick that needle in their arm.”

                        Jones said his deputies have never carried Narcan and that has been his stance since he was first elected in 2004.

                        Jones said Narcan is the wrong approach for a war on opioids that “we're not winning,” and said he favored stronger prevention efforts to prevent people from first using the drug.

                        He told The Post that drug addiction has ravaged this country and his county, and he's seen the worst of it. He said deputies encountered a man in the jail parking lot who had just been bailed out by his mother. Both were shooting up heroin in her car. In his time as sheriff, three babies had been born in the jail addicted to drugs, including one in a toilet, Jones said.

                        Doling out extra medical intervention when someone has overdosed could put his deputies in danger from people trying to hide drugs or avoid prosecution, he said. And addicts, he claims, can wake up agitated and combative when Narcan puts them into immediate withdrawal, an assertion that has been disputed as an outdated stereotype.

                        Jones's stance is not a popular one among law enforcement. Deputies in neighboring counties carry the drug, the Enquirer reported, and Jones has been criticized by other law enforcement agencies and harm reduction advocates who are also contending with the epidemic.
                        http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/why...r70?li=BBnb7Kz
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                          Of course, as you know, many doctors just crank out prescriptions for a fee without even seeing the "patient".
                          That was more common years ago when so called " pain clinics" gave out prescriptions like tissues .

                          In recent years there has been a crack down on these .
                          "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                          Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                            There is a new "rush" that has become the rage for hardcore junkies, intentionally OD in front of hospitals and Fire stations or dial 911 to report a overdose then shoot up before EMTs arrives so they can get shot up with Narcan....sounds redicules, one Sheriff has never allowed his deputies to carry Narcan.

                            rl]
                            That makes no sense. A drug user who gets narcan has his high taken away.
                            "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                            Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
                              That makes no sense. A drug user who gets narcan has his high taken away.
                              It's the rush of nearly dieing and being brought back
                              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                                It's the rush of nearly dieing and being brought back
                                It sounds like an urban story to be honest. Though it would be nothing new, people find rushes from all kinds of things.
                                Wisdom is personal

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