Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A fix for the opioid epidemic, Let addicts die.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Can't help people that don't want it.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Works for me...
    My worst jump story:
    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
    No lie.

    ~
    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by pamak View Post
      I do not agree with your view. This means that I do not agree with the view that we should ONLY blame trafficking and the users and pretend that the system does not play a role in this situation and that we should not try to improve it. As I said, when middle-aged white Americans are at the center of this epidemic, it is hard to argue that somehow these people became more irresponsible as they grew older.

      Nor do I think that it makes sense to accept the trafficking of drugs for profit simply because it has the approval of the system. A stock holder of a drug company or a doctor who gets profits as a result of this culture of promoting addictive prescription drugs should be held accountable as much as a thug who does the same thing in the street corner of a bad neighborhood. If you really believe that this issue must be seen 100% as one of "personal responsibility," and treat drugs in the way we treat smoking then I assume you must be also ready to exonerate the drug trafficking in general. Anybody should be free to offer anybody whatever drug he wants without suffering any legal consequences (at least as long as the recipient is an adult) and if a person accepts the offer then it is ONLY his fault, right?

      By the way, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse webpage

      "Prescription and Over-the-Counter Medications"

      "More people die from overdoses of prescription opioids than from all other drugs combined, including heroin and cocaine. " ( Revised November 2015)

      Again, because of my low number of posts I cannot post the link, but you can easily find the information. What is disturbing is that I doubt that many people today are aware of this information and of the real magnitude of the problem. This is obvious from comments which try to associate this opioid problem to "non-whites". I guess, part of the reason for this ignorance is that the medical professionals have been too slow in their reaction to address this epidemic and inform the public which is quite natural considering that there is a lot of profit generated from the legal "trafficking" of hard opioids.
      I don't see it as a race problem. I will share a link to the US Border Patrol website, you can if you choose have daily news releases sent to you.
      I have been getting them for several years. It may surprise you to see just how much illegal substances are intercepted everyday. Unfortunately they estimate that only 10% is discovered before it hits the streets.
      This source has no lab standards or regulatory oversight.

      https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/media-releases/all
      Last edited by Urban hermit; 04 Jul 17, 21:53.
      Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
      Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
        I don't see it as a race problem. I will share a link to the US Border Patrol website, you can if you choose have daily news releases sent to you.
        I have been getting them for several years. It may surprise you to see just how much illegal substances are intercepted everyday. Unfortunately they estimate that only 10% is discovered before it hits the streets.
        This source has no lab standards or regulatory oversight.
        I am not surprised to hear that a big part of illegal drugs is coming through undetected. And I am all for more secure borders. I certainly believe that
        it can help in the "war against drugs." However, I mention a few facts to show that the problem is much more complicated than what some people believe. To some, there is this idea that secure borders will somehow automatically solve or at least drastically improve the situation with the opioid epidemic.

        For this, reason, I gave some facts to show that the above simply cannot be true. For example, when the number of deaths from prescription drug overdoses surpasses the number of deaths from all the drugs combined , including heroin and cocaine, it is obvious that even the most effective policy of securing the borders will not be enough to counter the opioid crisis. This does not mean that we should abandon policies to improve border security. I am just saying that the time has come to think about additional ways to fight the opioid epidemic and go after the practices and culture of the legal "traffickers" in the medical field.

        Another thing to consider is that the tactics we have used up until today in this "war against drugs" have not brought any results. The US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, surpassing even the incarceration rates of many authoritarian regimes, and many of these incarcerations are linked to drugs. Still, the situation does not seem to improve. The use of police force and strict penalties has limits and cannot be the only measure we take against drugs.
        Last edited by pamak; 05 Jul 17, 16:39.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by pamak View Post
          I am not surprised to hear that a big part of illegal drugs is coming through undetected. And I am all for more secure borders. I certainly believe that
          it can help in the "war against drugs." However, I mention a few facts to show that the problem is much more complicated than what some people believe. To some, there is this idea that secure borders will somehow automatically solve or at least drastically improve the situation with the opioid epidemic.

          For this, reason, I gave some facts to show that the above simply cannot be true. For example, when the number of deaths from prescription drug overdoses surpasses the number of deaths from all the drugs combined , including heroin and cocaine, it is obvious that even the most effective policy of securing the borders will not be enough to counter the opioid crisis. This does not mean that we should abandon policies to improve border security. I am just saying that the time has come to think about additional ways to fight the opioid epidemic and go after the practices and culture of the legal "traffickers" in the medical field.

          Another thing to consider is that the tactics we have used up until today in this "war against drugs" have not brought any results. The US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, surpassing even the incarceration rates of many authoritarian regimes, and many of these incarcerations are linked to drugs. Still, the situation does not seem to improve. The use of police force and strict penalties has limits and cannot be the only measure we take against drugs.
          I don't know what you referenced when you said "the above just can't be true".
          I am not addressing the war on drugs, that is a separate issue. It is not responsible for the street version of fentanyl that is being sold at a very low price on our streets.
          You can, if you insist, ignore the facts and go on with the misconception that all of these drugs are being made in US pharmaceutical labs, when this is not the case. Bootleg whiskey was not made by Jack Daniels, it was and still being made in illegal distilleries. And in those operations there is little concern for safety or quality control, the stronger, the better.
          This is what is going on right now with Fentanyl and other drugs. Illegal labs in China, Mexico, and the US are making knockoffs of these drugs, along with many other drugs, that are then sold on streets around the world.
          W18 is one such drug, even more powerful than the illegally made Fentanyl. If we can not discuss the issue without honesty about the details then we should just give up and bury the dead, and prepare to bury more.
          I'm sure you are aware that illegal operations in China are make knockoffs of just about every product they can, look alike Honda bikes, Gibson guitars, name brand TVs all of which are poorly made, but when it comes to fake pot, and knockoffs of prescription drugs, it's the pharmaceutical industry's fault, or the war on drugs.
          The Fentanyl made in legitimate labs is weaker, still a potent drug, but the consistency and dosage is constant, predictable and manageable when used by a trained specialist. Even these drugs in the hands of a addict or untrained person are deadly.
          The street version is thousands of times more potent, inconsistencies makes each batch strength unknown and unpredictable.
          Those are the facts. While it is very true that drugs prescribed to patients do occasionally end up on the streets, that is a separate issue. A Oxycontin tablet will not cause severe overdoses by merely touching it.
          We are dealing with two separate issues.

          Last edited by Urban hermit; 06 Jul 17, 22:35.
          Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
          Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
            I don't know what you referenced when you said "the above just can't be true".
            I am not addressing the war on drugs, that is a separate issue. It is nit responsible for the street version of fentanyl that is being sold at a very low price on our streets.
            You can, if you insist, ignore the facts and go on with the misconception that all of these drugs are being made in US pharmaceutical labs, when this is not the case. Bootleg whiskey was not made by Jack Daniels, it was and still being made in illegal distilleries. And in those operations there is little concern for safety or quality control, the stronger, the better.
            This is what is going on right now with Fentanyl and other drugs. Illegal labs in China, Mexico, and the US are making knockoffs of these drugs, along with many other drugs, that are then sold on streets around the world.
            W18 is one such drug, even more powerful than the vat made Fentanyl. If we can not discuss the issue without honesty about the details then we should just give up and bury the dead, and prepare to bury more.
            I'm sure you are aware that illegal operations in China are make knockoffs of just about every product they can, look alike Honda bikes, Gibson guitars, name brand TVs all of which are poorly made, but when it comes to fake pot, and knockoffs of prescription drugs, it's the pharmaceutical industry's fault, or the war on drugs.
            The Fentanyl made in legitimate labs is weaker, still a potent drug, but the consistency and dosage is constant, predictable and manageable when used by a trained specialist. Even these drugs in the hands of a addict or untrained person are deadly.
            The street version is thousands of times more potent, inconsistencies makes each batch strength unknown and unpredictable.
            Those are the facts. While it is very true that drugs prescribed to patients do occasionally end up on the streets, that is a separate issue. A Oxycontin tablet will not cause severe overdoses by merely touching it.
            We are dealing with two separate issues.
            When I said "the above cannot be true," I meant that the opioid epidemic cannot be solved by simply securing the borders.
            The thread is about the opoiid epidemic, and I mentioned facts which you did not dispute to show that deaths from prescription drugs overdoses surpasses the deaths from all other illegal drugs combined. So, it seems to me that it is you who ignores facts and focus only on the illegal drugs that come from the southern border or whatever.

            In addition, the people who become addicted to prescription drugs do so through legal procedures. It is not that they became addicted by having contacts with street gangs. This is also the reason why this problem is mainly a problem of white communities. It is the market culture and the medical profession which pushes the use of opioid medicine among patients. Many for example become addicted to opioid painkillers after surgeries (Rush Limbaugh was one of them). With the the poor white communities the problem is more severe because even though they develop access to opioid drugs through Medicare and Medicaid, they lack the means to battle addiction (I am talking about the patients who eventually develop an addiction). More affluent communities have the luxury and the resources to leave their job and spend a long time in detox centers to treat their addiction.
            Last edited by pamak; 06 Jul 17, 15:45.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
              I don't see it as a race problem.
              Actually, it became one years ago when those using Crack Cocaine, a favorite of Black drug abusers, were targeted for arrest and prosecution. Ignored was heron and inhaling powdered cocaine users that were mostly White middle class types.

              There were few deaths back them as most addicts were aware of the strength of the drugs they were abusing.

              Now, given the powerful additives in use, deaths are way up because the addicts are unaware of how powerful some of the stuff is that they are obtaining off the streets.

              Or,

              Is it some secret program of the Feds to catch addicts and suppliers through the deliberate poisoning of their supplies, something the Feds actually did with bootleg whiskey to catch alcoholics during the later prohibition era?
              “Breaking News,”

              “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by pamak View Post
                When I said "the above cannot be true," I meant that the opioid epidemic cannot be solved by simply securing the borders.
                The thread is about the opoiid epidemic, and I mentioned facts which you did not dispute to show that deaths from prescription drugs overdoses surpasses the deaths from all other illegal drugs combined. So, it seems to me that it is you who ignores facts and focus only on the illegal drugs that come from the southern border or whatever.

                In addition, the people who become addicted to prescription drugs do so through legal procedures. It is not that they became addicted by having contacts with street gangs. This is also the reason why this problem is mainly a problem of white communities. It is the market culture and the medical profession which pushes the use of opioid medicine among patients. Many for example become addicted to opioid painkillers after surgeries (Rush Limbaugh was one of them). With the the poor white communities the problem is more severe because even though they develop access to opioid drugs through Medicare and Medicaid, they lack the means to battle addiction (I am talking about the patients who eventually develop an addiction). More affluent communities have the luxury and the resources to leave their job and spend a long time in detox centers to treat their addiction.
                I did not mean to suggest it is a border control problem, that is not my view. I posted the link to the US Border Patrol news reports so you and others could understand the amount of this stuff being intercepted at the borders by immigration agents.
                This stuff is being made in illegal labs, being trafficked illegally, used illegally. It seems to me to be a crime problem. That is my opinion, it doesn't make any sense to blame pharmacist companies that legally developed medicine only to have the formula copied without license and manufactured illegally.
                Do you have any proof other than rumors and opinions that all addicts become addicted by prescription ?
                No doubt many people treated for pain become addicted, but there are many more who are treated for painful conditions and do not become addicts. The problem may be indicative of a medical system that allows patients to doctor shop. But to insist all addict's became addicted by going to doctors is absurd.
                We need more resources for addicts, on this I think we can agree.
                We also need to increase our efforts to shutdown the illegal labs producing this poison and those who market it.
                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                  I did not mean to suggest it is a border control problem, that is not my view. I posted the link to the US Border Patrol news reports so you and others could understand the amount of this stuff being intercepted at the borders by immigration agents.
                  This stuff is being made in illegal labs, being trafficked illegally, used illegally. It seems to me to be a crime problem. That is my opinion, it doesn't make any sense to blame pharmacist companies that legally developed medicine only to have the formula copied without license and manufactured illegally.
                  Do you have any proof other than rumors and opinions that all addicts become addicted by prescription ?
                  No doubt many people treated for pain become addicted, but there are many more who are treated for painful conditions and do not become addicts. The problem may be indicative of a medical system that allows patients to doctor shop. But to insist all addict's became addicted by going to doctors is absurd.
                  We need more resources for addicts, on this I think we can agree.
                  We also need to increase our efforts to shutdown the illegal labs producing this poison and those who market it.
                  I think you do not read my sources and you do not pay attention to what am saying. I never said that all addicts become addicted by prescription. I challenge you to show me such a quote.
                  I also never said that all users of prescription addicts become addicted.
                  I challenge you to show the quote.
                  I will appreciate if you do not put words in my mouth...

                  I just used data from government organizations such as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention to show

                  first, that the opioid addiction is not just a problem of minorities, and that it has become an epidemic even in white communities

                  and second, that more deaths from overdose are attributed to prescription drugs than to all illegal drugs combined. And I used the second fact to argue that the opioid epidemic cannot be address by simply securing the borders. This does not mean that securing the borders is a bad thing or that illegal drugs do not cause death or that we should not go after illegal drugs. None of these claims are mine. I am just saying that when prescription drugs have become the number 1 cause of accidental deaths i the US and are responsible for even the reduction of life expectancy for middle-aged white Americans, it is obvious that this opioid epidemic requires a change in the medical field too.

                  By the way, accidentally today there is a report from CDC titled

                  " Vital Signs: Changes in Opioid Prescribing in the United States, 2006–2015"


                  Here is one paragraph

                  "he amount of opioids prescribed in the United States peaked at 782 morphine milligram equivalents (MME) per capita in 2010 and then decreased to 640 MME per capita in 2015. Despite significant decreases, the amount of opioids prescribed in 2015 remained approximately three times as high as in 1999 and varied substantially across the country. County-level factors associated with higher amounts of prescribed opioids include a larger percentage of non-Hispanic whites; a higher prevalence of diabetes and arthritis; micropolitan status (i.e., town/city; nonmetro); and higher unemployment and Medicaid enrollment."

                  It is obvious that the aggressive push of opioids results to more addicts and more deaths from overdose. So, why should we resist a change in the medical field to make sure that there is more prudence in the administration of opioids? This is way easier and more realistic than trying to secure thousands of miles of a border. Heck, the Israelis could not even secure a much shorter border around Gaza. Do you really think that in the erra of drones, we should seriously put all eggs in one basket by focusing ONLY on border control? This is why I mentioned earlier the "war on drugs" mentality that characterizes your posts. You have too much faith on suppressing mechanisms like police actions and border control and you seem to discount the need of reforms in our society which can have a big positive impact on the drug epidemic.

                  By the way, here is another study about the life expectancy and mortality of middle-aged adults which was published in 2015 (again, I cannot post links, so I am just giving the title and abstract)


                  Rising morbidity and mortality in midlife among white non-Hispanic Americans in the 21st century
                  by
                  Anne Case1 and Angus Deaton1

                  "This paper documents a marked increase in the all-cause mortality of middle-aged white non-Hispanic men and women in the United States between 1999 and 2013. This change reversed decades of progress in mortality and was unique to the United States; no other rich country saw a similar turnaround. The midlife mortality reversal was confined to white non-Hispanics; black non-Hispanics and Hispanics at midlife, and those aged 65 and above in every racial and ethnic group, continued to see mortality rates fall. This increase for whites was largely accounted for by increasing death rates from drug and alcohol poisonings, suicide, and chronic liver diseases and cirrhosis. "

                  In other words, the US is now the only developed nation in which we see a REDUCTION of life expectancy (which is the same as saying "an increase in mortality") of a certain demographic group (middle-aged white non-Hispanic men and women) and drugs are a main reason for this trend.
                  Notice also that Blacks and Hispanics do not experience such an increase in mortality.
                  Last edited by pamak; 07 Jul 17, 00:02.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    One question about prescription overdoses if I may:

                    Are the people overdosing the same people prescribed the medication?

                    IOW

                    Was it THEIR prescription, or was it an ILLEGAL NARCOTIC when they consumed it?

                    As I've stated before and the "it's society's fault" crowd doesn't seem to hear, doctors are under very strict guidelines, and so are pharmacists. Yes there was a lot of fast and loose prescribing in the past. Now, the doctors and pharmacies have a lot of rules, and tracking in place. And detectives are keeping track of it as well and looking for the pill shoppers and other addict types, as well as doctors overprescribing or even dealing. We just locked up a doctor at the cancer center for trafficking pills....and in the process made a major child porn bust against his son (search warrants are amazing things when people are really stupid). Talking to doctors in the US and being friends with them, they don't like to prescribe narcotics at all, they will turn away people who demand them, and typically they want you to be an established patient before you get them.
                    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Fentanyl is one of the most powerful painkillers on the market, in the form of pills is not normally prescribed to anyone still walking...

                      I imagine chronic pain patients can get the patches ("morphine patches") and still function, because they'd become resistant to the effect to some degree, but anyone without a serious illness in possession of the pills will likely either have an extremely careless doctor, or have obtained them in irregular fashion.

                      It's remarkably simple though, so I suspect it's quite possible to reproduce it in a private laboratory, and simply bypass the medical circuit altogether, which of course could lead to even stronger pills, and consequently overdose.
                      Last edited by Snowygerry; 07 Jul 17, 09:07.
                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                        Fentanyl is one of the most powerful painkillers on the market, in the form of pills is not normally prescribed to anyone still walking...

                        I imagine chronic pain patients can get the patches ("morphine patches") and still function, because they'd become resistant to the effect to some degree, but anyone without a serious illness in possession of the pills will likely either have an extremely careless doctor, or have obtained them in irregular fashion.

                        It's remarkably simple though, so I suspect it's quite possible to reproduce it in a private laboratory, and simply bypass the medical circuit altogether, which of course could lead to even stronger pills, and consequently overdose.
                        I agree, this Fentanyl current on the street from what I've seen in reports is not just extremely powerful, it is toxic.
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                          One question about prescription overdoses if I may:

                          Are the people overdosing the same people prescribed the medication?

                          IOW

                          Was it THEIR prescription, or was it an ILLEGAL NARCOTIC when they consumed it?

                          As I've stated before and the "it's society's fault" crowd doesn't seem to hear, doctors are under very strict guidelines, and so are pharmacists. Yes there was a lot of fast and loose prescribing in the past. Now, the doctors and pharmacies have a lot of rules, and tracking in place. And detectives are keeping track of it as well and looking for the pill shoppers and other addict types, as well as doctors overprescribing or even dealing. We just locked up a doctor at the cancer center for trafficking pills....and in the process made a major child porn bust against his son (search warrants are amazing things when people are really stupid). Talking to doctors in the US and being friends with them, they don't like to prescribe narcotics at all, they will turn away people who demand them, and typically they want you to be an established patient before you get them.
                          Overprescribing maybe a problem, but so is forgery, but if the stuff is on the street in large amounts and dirt cheap, there is little incentive to work the system.
                          I don't have to tell any LEO how dangerous this stuff is. You can end up exposed to potentially leathal amounts just by touching evidence.
                          Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                          Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                            I agree, this Fentanyl current on the street from what I've seen in reports is not just extremely powerful, it is toxic.
                            Well the effect is in essence the same as morphine, which is always "toxic", potentially deadly depending on dosage.


                            In synthetic form it can be made as potent as desired though, classic Fentanyl is already xx regular morphine, Carfentanil (which is essentially the same product) is xxxx morphine, it is used to drop elephants with a single dart for example.

                            That's why I was surprised to hear they mix it with ordinary heroin,

                            compared to all the above heroin is candy..
                            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                              Well the effect is in essence the same as morphine, which is always "toxic", potentially deadly depending on dosage.


                              In synthetic form it can be made as potent as desired though, classic Fentanyl is already xx regular morphine, Carfentanil (which is essentially the same product) is xxxx morphine, it is used to drop elephants with a single dart for example.

                              That's why I was surprised to hear they mix it with ordinary heroin,

                              compared to all the above heroin is candy..


                              Which brings us back to the OP. Many small cities and rural counties just do not have the financial resources to deal with the results of this epidemic.
                              The first responders are maxed out, the hospitals are as well, and the undertakers are putting bodies on ice.
                              They are not concerned about what caused the new decades old drug problems hounding this nation, they are just trying not to go bankrupt dealing with the results.
                              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                                One question about prescription overdoses if I may:

                                Are the people overdosing the same people prescribed the medication?
                                Not always. All it really means is that the drug was legally prescribed to someone, but not necessarily the person overdoing. Best example: a kid who OD's on the Fentanyl prescribed for his mother's cancer pain.

                                Another example is an accidental OD on someone's prescribed meds, which can be the patient themselves.


                                Of course, as you know, many doctors just crank out prescriptions for a fee without even seeing the "patient".
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X