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  • #46
    Originally posted by mconrad View Post
    Scientific American says pretty much the opposite: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...not-the-cause/

    The final major risk factor for addiction is economic insecurity and poverty, particularly unemployment and the hopelessness, social marginalization and lack of structure that often accompany it. For example, heroin addiction rates among people who make less than $20,000 a year are 3.4 times higher than in people who make over $50,000. To those who study the effects of inequality on health, it is no coincidence that the collapse of the white middle class has been accompanied by a rise in all types of addictions, but especially addiction to opioids.

    Further, at least half of people with opioid addictions also have a mental illness or personality disorder. The precursors to these problems are often evident in childhood, too. For example, children who are extremely impulsive are at high risk—but on the opposite end of the scale, so, too are children who are highly cautious and anxious. To reach these kids, we don’t need to label them, but we do need to provide tools that are tailored to their specific issues to prevent them from using drugs to manage those issues.
    Correlation does not equal causation and since most poor people don't use, just like most people don't use period, it's not a solid argument for "they can't help it".
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
      Addiction has everything to do with being stupid.


      Then everyone is stupid. Or is it just drug addicts that is stupid?

      They chose to try the drugs that are killing them. No one forced them to.
      Do elaborate, are you saying addicts want to die from drug overdose?

      As long as there are people there'll be addicts? True but we'll be saving money and darwinism will ensure the population stays low because they'll be dying off faster. Sounds capitalism? You bet your ass it does and that's why I like it. If they're too stupid to stay off drugs there's no point in wrecking ourselves trying to save them.
      I thought you were a creationist? At least not too long ago you were. But then again, new converts are usually the most fundamentalist, aren't they? What is with this nihilistic view on darwinism all of a sudden? Have you abandoned all your christian values, or did you ever even have them?

      Obviously what you posted is nonsense. Nor do I advocate supporting habits, but once an addict reaches the point where he knows he has to change his ways there better be someone there offering support.

      Easy for you to be generous with our money but not as much for us. And how hard should you fight to keep a house from burning down when the owner is actively trying to burn it down himself?
      What money? I am not advocating buying the junkies their daily fix. As for burning down your own house; if you look at the bigger picture...*COUGH*TRUMP*COUGH*. We still care, and we will be here for you when you finally realise what road you have taken.
      Wisdom is personal

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Karri View Post


        Then everyone is stupid. Or is it just drug addicts that is stupid?



        Do elaborate, are you saying addicts want to die from drug overdose?



        I thought you were a creationist? At least not too long ago you were. But then again, new converts are usually the most fundamentalist, aren't they? What is with this nihilistic view on darwinism all of a sudden? Have you abandoned all your christian values, or did you ever even have them?

        Obviously what you posted is nonsense. Nor do I advocate supporting habits, but once an addict reaches the point where he knows he has to change his ways there better be someone there offering support.



        What money? I am not advocating buying the junkies their daily fix. As for burning down your own house; if you look at the bigger picture...*COUGH*TRUMP*COUGH*. We still care, and we will be here for you when you finally realise what road you have taken.
        1. Addicts want to be high and don't care about the possibility of death.

        2. Former creationist. Still Christian. And my viewpoints are reconcilable with Christianity because even Christianity recognizes a point of no return. As a Christian it is my duty to help anyone who wants and needs help. But there is no Christian dictate for helping someone who doesn't want it. There are verses involving "shaking the dust from your sandals" for people who reject you.

        Now if a person comes to me and says "I'm an addict and I want to be free, can you help me?" then yeah it is 100% my Christian obligation to help him out to the best of my ability and I would do so gladly. But if a person wants their drugs and is actively killing themself I am under no obligation to sacrifice resources I could spend helping people who WANT an escape supporting someone who has no intention of leaving their lifestyle.

        You mention "when an addict realizes he has to change his ways someone should be there offering support". I agree. WHEN HE REACHES OUT. If all he wants is his fix then he needs to be left because supporting his descent isn't helping anyone.

        Christian law for sin is similar. If a person leads a harmful lifestyle and won't quit the church is not to subsidize this according to Paul. When said sinner repents the doors should instantly open. But as long as they are set in their ways nothing can be done.
        A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

        Comment


        • #49
          You know, socialism is not about throwing money at people so that they can commit whatever debauchery they want. I think that is a pretty common misunderstanding in these here forums...

          And saying "Addicts want to be high and don't care about the possibility of death." is the same as saying "people who drive cars want to drive and don't care about the possibility of death".

          Addicts usually know their limits; they are dying in record numbers because fentanyl is vastly more powerful than heroin. Clearly if they use a standard they care. But that is quite besides the point...
          Wisdom is personal

          Comment


          • #50
            Meanwhile in Chicago.....

            Heroin-related deaths increased 53 percent in DuPage County in 2016, according to statistics released by the county coroner's office.

            Seventy-eight people overdosed in 2016, compared to 51 in 2015.

            Perhaps more alarming were the number of overdoses from a mixture of heroin and fentanyl, the latter a synthetic heroin substitute, and from fentanyl in its pure form.

            Eight people died in 2015 from overdoses of pure fentanyl, and 16 last year, an increase of 100 percent, according to the coroner's statistics. And while seven died in 2015 from mixtures of heroin and fentanyl, there were 26 such deaths last year, an increase of 370 percent, the numbers showed.
            http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...126-story.html
            Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
            Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
              I'm addicted to living my life in peace and not supporting horrible people that have no self control. The state should excuse me of paying taxes because it traumatizes me and I need everyone else to feel sorry for me because I'm a victim of liberal harassment. After all I'm a toxic white male so my taxable income is clearly tainted.

              It's time to call a spade a spade. If you are a drug addict you are not a victim you are a narcissistic piece of dung. If you are a white heterosexual male on average you are supporting two or three pieces of dung and a couple of women study graduates on your productivity. At the same time as you are literally feeding, housing, providing utilities and protecting the liberal snobs and losers they get to call you names and tell you what a horrible person you are because of factors you had no control over.

              Maybe it's time to take MGTOW a step further and let the liberals and all their victims fend for themselves. Most of them would be dead in two weeks. The arrogant c word bigots can kiss my ass.

              I don't feel the least bit guilty for all the victims in the world because I had nothing to do with their problems. In the future if you want to be feed, housed, clothed, water, electricity, heat, and transportation ask nicely.
              I think we should first agree about certain facts before using terms like "white heterosexual males" and tax payers" with all the implication of this rhetoric...

              Opioids and addiction are not only problems of some "irresonsible" minorities or gays. In fact, the recent trend of the increased rates of opioid abuse is observed among the white middle-aged people too, and it is so severe that affects their life expectancy of the whole subgroup of middle-aged white Americans! This comes from medscape "Is the Prescription Opioid Epidemic a White Problem?"

              According to this source, "The decrease in White life expectancy began in 1998, two years after the US Food and Drug Administration approved OxyContin as a "minimally addictive" pain reliever. "

              I cannot post the link because I receive message that I have less than 100 posts, but I gave all the relative information that can help you read my source. You can also double check the above information by consulting other sources.

              Also, the same source shows that the increasing trend of opioid abuse is not just a problem of "personal responsibility, unless you are ready to believe that people' responsibility fluctuates over their life and middle-aged white Americans have become irresponsible in the most recent years which does not make much sense.

              The above indicates that, things like market conditions have enough of an impact to change significantly the opioid abuse rates. And as long as drug consumption in the US supports a very profitable industry (full of "honest" tax payers) with minimum regulations and as long as many doctors participate in this market for profit by prescribing highly addictive drugs, it is inevitable that addiction rates will increase.

              From the same post I posted above, "...OxyContin's manufacturer sent drug representatives to generalist physicians to promote its use for "moderate" pain conditions, with rapid uptake in primarily White states such as Maine, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Virginia."

              Now, the issue is if you are willing to recognize the problem and discuss measures which can improve the current situation or if you are simply interested in blaming the usual opponents of your political beliefs who , I suspect, are the "liberals," "socialists" or all those "irresponsible" people who are not honest tax paying "whites.
              Last edited by pamak; 03 Jul 17, 23:03.
              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by pamak View Post
                I think we should first agree about certain facts before using terms like "white heterosexual males" and tax payers" with all the implication of this rhetoric...

                Opioids and addiction are not only problems of some "irresonsible" minorities or gays. In fact, the recent trend of the increased rates of opioid abuse is observed among the white middle-aged people too, and it is so severe that affects their life expectancy of the whole subgroup of middle-aged white Americans! This comes from medscape "Is the Prescription Opioid Epidemic a White Problem?"

                According to this source, "The decrease in White life expectancy began in 1998, two years after the US Food and Drug Administration approved OxyContin as a "minimally addictive" pain reliever. "

                I cannot post the link because I receive message that I have less than 100 posts, but I gave all the relative information that can help you read my source. You can also double check the above information by consulting other sources.

                Also, the same source shows that the increasing trend of opioid abuse is not just a problem of "personal responsibility, unless you are ready to believe that people' responsibility fluctuates over their life and middle-aged white Americans have become irresponsible in the most recent years which does not make much sense.

                The above indicates that, things like market conditions have enough of an impact to change significantly the opioid abuse rates. And as long as drug consumption in the US supports a very profitable industry (full of "honest" tax payers) with minimum regulations and as long as many doctors participate in this market for profit by prescribing highly addictive drugs, it is inevitable that addiction rates will increase.

                From the same post I posted above, "...OxyContin's manufacturer sent drug representatives to generalist physicians to promote its use for "moderate" pain conditions, with rapid uptake in primarily White states such as Maine, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Virginia."

                Now, the issue is if you are willing to recognize the problem and discuss measures which can improve the current situation or if you are simply interested in blaming the usual opponents of your political beliefs who , I suspect, are the "liberals," "socialists" or all those "irresponsible" people who are not honest tax paying "whites.
                So it's white mans fault again!
                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                  So it's white mans fault again!
                  No, but a large percentage of addicts are po' white folk.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                    So it's white mans fault again!
                    That's not what he said but it does seem to be a white man's problem. The famous photo taken 25 miles from where I live:



                    Columbiana County is over 96% white. ODs are happening here everyday. An East Liverpool police OD'ed by just getting fentanyl on his bare skin. The opioid epidemic is colorblind.

                    Chris Green’s hands were sweaty after spending more than an hour interviewing suspects in a drug case and processing a scene at a May 12 traffic stop. His pores were open, making it easy to absorb the small potent granules of fentanyl that were left clinging to his shirt.
                    It’s been nearly seven weeks since Green accidentally overdosed on the drug, requiring four doses of Narcan to revive him. On Thursday morning, the 32-year-old East Liverpool police officer traveled to Columbus to shoot a training video and share his experience with other officers.
                    http://www.dispatch.com/news/2017062...ontact-dangers
                    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                      So it's white mans fault again!
                      I did not respond in order to play the blame game. I responded to oppose the idea expressed in a previous post which puts the whole blame on the shoulders of some marginalized people. I expressed my position that the recent opioid crisis cannot be treated as simply a symptom of irresponsible "non-white" "non heterosexual: communities, and that there is plenty to be done to improve a system which contributes to the problem of the opioid epidemic which is so severe that has started to make a dent a in the life expectancy of even the white community.


                      If someone insists on seeing this issue in racial terms and points out that this system was mainly a product of "responsible" whites, he misses the broader picture. A system by definition will be a product of the dominant community. So, if one really wants to be accurate , it is perhaps better to point not at the "whites" in general but at an elite which, yes, is predominantly white and rich. Now my question is if this observation means that we should accept the "wisdom" of the current system and keep attributing all its problems to the "irresponsibility of marginalized and poor communities just like it has happened in the past with other problems of the current system. If you believe that we should not criticize and try to fix the current system because it is the product of "enlightened" wealthy whites, I will disagree. In fact, if there is one thing that both Republicans and Democrats accept is that the current system needs to change.
                      Last edited by pamak; 04 Jul 17, 14:52.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by pamak View Post
                        I did not respond in order to play the blame game. I responded to oppose the idea expressed in a previous post which puts the whole blame on the shoulders of some marginalized people. I expressed my position that the recent opioid crisis cannot be treated as simply a symptom of irresponsible "non-white" "non heterosexual: communities, and that there is plenty to be done to improve a system which contributes to the problem of the opioid epidemic which is so severe that has started to make a dent a in the life expectancy of even the white community.


                        If someone insists on seeing this issue in racial terms and points out that this system was mainly a product of "responsible" whites, he misses the broader picture. A system by definition will be a product of the dominant community. So, if one really wants to be accurate , it is perhaps better to point not at the "whites" in general but at an elite which, yes, is predominantly white and rich. Now my question is if this observation means that we should accept the "wisdom" of the current system and keep attributing all its problems to the "irresponsibility of marginalized and poor communities just like it has happened in the past with other problems of the current system. If you believe that we should not criticize and try to fix the current system because it is the product of "enlightened" wealthy whites, I will disagree. In fact, if there is one thing that both Republicans and Democrats accept is that the current system needs to change.
                        It is my opinion that blaming anyone other than those individuals who are directly involved in the illegal manufacturing, smuggling and distribution of these or any illegal drug is a futile diversion.
                        Can we agree that Science magazine is a neutral source?
                        Underground labs in China are devising potent new opiates faster than authorities can respond
                        By Kathleen McLaughlinMar. 29, 2017 , 9:00 AM
                        CINCINNATI, OHIO—Miller Atkinson was an addict from the very first time he shot up with heroin. "I fell in love with it. Everything else fell to the wayside," says the 24-year-old. "There was nothing that could have stopped me from getting high."

                        And that's what he did every day, for 9 months, in his family's upper middle class neighborhood in this Midwestern city. He dropped out of the University of Cincinnati. Like other users, he built up a tolerance to heroin and needed larger doses to find euphoria. Then, about 4 years ago, a powerful new combination hit the streets here: heroin cut with fentanyl, a synthetic opiate about 100 times more potent than morphine that's used to alleviate pain during and after surgery and in late-stage cancers. "It started trickling in, and we were like, ‘Wow, that was good, we need to get more of that,’" he says. "It was more intense." So much so that friends who shot up with fentanyl-laced heroin started dying.

                        Atkinson was one of the lucky ones. After several misdemeanors and a felony heroin possession charge, he got his life back on track, and he is now studying for the law school entrance exam.
                        http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/...es-can-respond

                        We must address issue, the source, the trafficking and the user.
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by R. Evans View Post
                          That's not what he said but it does seem to be a white man's problem.

                          -of]

                          I work Fire / EMS in South West Ohio. I've been on hundreds of opiate over doses. I work in areas with about balanced white and black populations, with a sizeable hispanic population.

                          I can count on one hand the number of blacks I've made who over dosed. In fact it is so rare we call them unicorns! Ironically the first heroin overdose run I made over 25 years ago was a black man. He was older, he could have been a left over addict from the 1960's.

                          I've made zero runs for over doses on hispanics.

                          I've been to old nasty nursing homes that were closed for years. They have been reopened to have a place to put opiate addicts that are too messed up to take care of themselves. In These place the patients were all white.

                          So yes at least in South West Ohio it is 99% a problem with whites. I'm curious if that is true nationwide?

                          Late summer early fall 2016 we had a huge increase in overdoses and associated deaths. Latter in the year it seemed to slow down and I hoped things were getting better. But as 2017 rolls on we have very good days with few overdoses, and very bad days with many. 2016 was bad but I think the final toll for 2017 will be worse.

                          As our addicts get further along in their illness their health is getting much worse. A very high % have hepatitis C. I've seen 110 lb women who have one arm which has blown up from who knows what kind of infection. In their weakened state they are much more vulnerable to death.
                          "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                          Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                          • #58
                            Every community council meeting I've been to in the last three years there is some one who says let them die when the opiate problem is brought up.

                            They are always answered by some one who has a friend or relative who after several overdoses and several tries at rehab is now clean.

                            I've been told it takes on average three tries at rehab to get clean.

                            Sadly many don't get three chances.
                            "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                            Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                            • #59
                              Middletown Ohio is between Cincinnati and Dayton Ohio. It is an old steel town of just under 50,000 people mostly white and heavily of Appalachian back ground.

                              Last year they had 74 opiate overdose deaths. 2017 will probably be worse, they've already had 51.

                              Middletown Ohio is said by many to be ground zero of the opiate epidemic.


                              http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/...d-to-last-year
                              "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                              Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                                It is my opinion that blaming anyone other than those individuals who are directly involved in the illegal manufacturing, smuggling and distribution of these or any illegal drug is a futile diversion.
                                Can we agree that Science magazine is a neutral source?
                                ...

                                We must address issue, the source, the trafficking and the user.
                                I do not agree with your view. This means that I do not agree with the view that we should ONLY blame trafficking and the users and pretend that the system does not play a role in this situation and that we should not try to improve it. As I said, when middle-aged white Americans are at the center of this epidemic, it is hard to argue that somehow these people became more irresponsible as they grew older.

                                Nor do I think that it makes sense to accept the trafficking of drugs for profit simply because it has the approval of the system. A stock holder of a drug company or a doctor who gets profits as a result of this culture of promoting addictive prescription drugs should be held accountable as much as a thug who does the same thing in the street corner of a bad neighborhood. If you really believe that this issue must be seen 100% as one of "personal responsibility," and treat drugs in the way we treat smoking then I assume you must be also ready to exonerate the drug trafficking in general. Anybody should be free to offer anybody whatever drug he wants without suffering any legal consequences (at least as long as the recipient is an adult) and if a person accepts the offer then it is ONLY his fault, right?

                                By the way, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse webpage

                                "Prescription and Over-the-Counter Medications"

                                "More people die from overdoses of prescription opioids than from all other drugs combined, including heroin and cocaine. " ( Revised November 2015)

                                Again, because of my low number of posts I cannot post the link, but you can easily find the information. What is disturbing is that I doubt that many people today are aware of this information and of the real magnitude of the problem. This is obvious from comments which try to associate this opioid problem to "non-whites". I guess, part of the reason for this ignorance is that the medical professionals have been too slow in their reaction to address this epidemic and inform the public which is quite natural considering that there is a lot of profit generated from the legal "trafficking" of hard opioids.
                                Last edited by pamak; 04 Jul 17, 19:58.
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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