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  • #31
    Originally posted by Karri View Post
    Tac: verything I've read about the subject points exactly at the other direction; this all started because of painkiller addiction. Opioids in other words, which heroin is.

    Once you become addicted you start abusing, and once you start abusing you need to get the stuff some other than legal way...and heroin is much cheaper than "painkillers".

    I mean you say it yourself:
    "tightening regulations and making it actually the general policy of doctors to NOT prescribe opiods. Now who's fault is it? "

    This is not a discussion of "fault(childish thing to even consider)", it's about what happened. If an opioid addict no longer gets the opioids from the doctor he gets them from the dealer; and the cartels have made sure they have something cheap and good to offer. And so forth.
    Then explain why the population of addicts is getting younger, not older? Why are we responding to 18 and 22 year old overdoses instead of increasingly older people?

    10 years ago painkillers were the problem.

    Today, on the bleeding edge, it's people going straight to Heroin.

    It'll take 10 years for the study to catch up to what the street already knows.

    We're not saving an increasingly older population of junkies that got hooked back when they had that car wreck and got given oxy because the doc was lazy.

    We're seeing an increasingly younger population of junkies that are getting hooked either on pills they purchased off the street, or directly on heroin. We're also seeing opiods mixed into other more common drugs (fentanyl laced weed for instance) which will boost heroin sales once they like that high.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
      That could kill most I imagine.

      Why mix these three ? One would honestly be "better" off with pure heroine.
      By and large most of what is sold as "heroin" in South West Ohio is fentanyl . The reason? It is cheaper for the dealers .

      Part of the problem is the drug dealers have terrible quality control. With fentanyl being so much stronger than heroin it is much easier to make an error. You can look at the local hospital emergency departments and tell when a bad batch is going through the area.
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
      Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        Then explain why the population of addicts is getting younger, not older? Why are we responding to 18 and 22 year old overdoses instead of increasingly older people?
        Quick google for statistics:
        http://www.businessinsider.com/opioi...tics-2017-2016

        But yeah, you're right with the studies; we are seeing the trend of over prescribing having it's effect. That in turn led to things like fentanyl becoming popular. That in turn will cause it to be more "popular" among younger generations. etc etc.

        Or what do you think is the reason?
        Wisdom is personal

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        • #34
          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
          Then explain why the population of addicts is getting younger, not older? Why are we responding to 18 and 22 year old overdoses instead of increasingly older people?

          10 years ago painkillers were the problem.

          Today, on the bleeding edge, it's people going straight to Heroin.

          It'll take 10 years for the study to catch up to what the street already knows.

          We're not saving an increasingly older population of junkies that got hooked back when they had that car wreck and got given oxy because the doc was lazy.

          We're seeing an increasingly younger population of junkies that are getting hooked either on pills they purchased off the street, or directly on heroin. We're also seeing opiods mixed into other more common drugs (fentanyl laced weed for instance) which will boost heroin sales once they like that high.
          Agree 100 %. Most of the opioid addicts I've seen did not get their start with legally prescribed pain meds.

          It's a good sob story . There is a small % that started on prescribed pain meds got hooked and transitioned to illegal drugs. They are the exception rather than the rule. But it generates more sympathy than some one who messed around with "recreational" drugs and got hooked.
          "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
          Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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          • #35
            What is childish is not holding people responsible for their decisions. Treating everyone as if they were infants is pathological altruism.
            We hunt the hunters

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            • #36
              What I find most interesting is that a lot of comments in this thread line up perfectly with the rhetoric the left uses to demonize conservatives on such issues. It's amusing when political hyperbole is actually shown to have meat behind it, since most of the time it's a gross and absurd exaggeration.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                What I find most interesting is that a lot of comments in this thread line up perfectly with the rhetoric the left uses to demonize conservatives on such issues. It's amusing when political hyperbole is actually shown to have meat behind it, since most of the time it's a gross and absurd exaggeration.
                There is nothing amusing about this topic.
                We hunt the hunters

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                  There is nothing amusing about this topic.
                  But there is plenty amusing about people's political behaviors.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    (...)
                    None of that precludes or argues against society deciding that some people aren't worth the expense of saving when they do stupid things.
                    Be careful what you ask for though, the list of "stupid things" may be longer than intended.

                    18 hour work days, bad diet, unhappily married, sorry sir, no treatment for you, you shouldn't have been so stupid

                    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
                    By and large most of what is sold as "heroin" in South West Ohio is fentanyl . The reason? It is cheaper for the dealers .

                    Part of the problem is the drug dealers have terrible quality control. With fentanyl being so much stronger than heroin it is much easier to make an error. You can look at the local hospital emergency departments and tell when a bad batch is going through the area.
                    Heroin isn't all that costly, not here at any rate, perhaps therein lies the problem ?

                    Once addicted to the more potent, synthetic opiates, one could easily overdose on "real" heroin because the effect would appear tame by comparison ?
                    Last edited by Snowygerry; 30 Jun 17, 08:00.
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Karri View Post
                      Quick google for statistics:
                      http://www.businessinsider.com/opioi...tics-2017-2016

                      But yeah, you're right with the studies; we are seeing the trend of over prescribing having it's effect. That in turn led to things like fentanyl becoming popular. That in turn will cause it to be more "popular" among younger generations. etc etc.

                      Or what do you think is the reason?
                      We know why those junkies are ODing. They are used to a specific dose of heroin and even weigh it out. They're dying because fentanyl is being introduced and screws up their dosing. Unlike you, I don't have to use business insider to understand these things, I have the luxury of responding to them directly. And hearing straight from the families or from the addict themselves "I used the same weight I always use". Fentanyl is killing what are basically 'functioning' addicts because it's being introduced in unpredictable amounts and screws up dosing. These addicts also typically shoot up at home and alone, like their morning routine, which is why we find them in bathrooms getting dressed or getting undressed after work.

                      What we are finding is a progressively younger addict that is starting directly on ILLEGAL narcotics.

                      But regardless, you have still not answered my question. To reiterate it for you:

                      So what is the answer?

                      You're incredibly quick to blame 'overprescribing' which makes it a 'societal' matter and means that tax dollars and the public's time and effort should be poured out endlessly to assist these helpless individuals that are victims of a societal issue.

                      Should we require doctors to document why they prescribed a narcotic pain medication and why NO OTHER non-narcotic pain medication would suffice, under penalty of imprisonment?

                      Should we require those getting prescription medications submit to warrentless searches vis a vis probation to determine whether they're consuming these medications as prescribed?

                      If they're helpless victims who are unable to make personal choices, then that is precisely what we should do.....

                      These are adult human beings, and having been given a choice, chose to consume narcotic pain medication at a level above that which was necessary to reasonably manage their pain. To consume it at a level at which they were 'high'. And subsequent to this consumption, in the absence of pain so great that it continues to require narcotic pain medication to manage, they continued to source narcotics.

                      Not only that, but after having become addicted to abusing narcotics, they take no advantage of numerous clinics, programs, and other mechanisms which society put in place to assist them in reaching release from their addiction.

                      Instead society has, through its utterly insane methodology of feeling good, created programs to PROVIDE needles to drug abusers in the hopes that they will not spread disease further. PROVIDE life-saving remedies to drug abusers without cost to the abuser, sanction, penalty, or requirement. DECRIMINALIZE Schedule I narcotics (narcotics with NO KNOWN MEDICAL USE) located at the scene of a reported overdose in an effort to get abusers to call for help.

                      You blame society for these ills through 'overprescribing', a charge which can be leveled at will but removed from examination of millions of medical records which cannot be examined due to HIPAA, cannot be proven nor disproven.

                      I blame society for making the abuse of narcotics on the user level a consequence free environment. Get your free needles, go get your dope, overdose and call for EMS or LEOs to save you with NARCAN. Refuse to get any help or participate in any program or indeed provide payment for services provided at hundreds or thousands of dollars of expense, and simply repeat the procedure. That is not a victim. Society is the victim of the abuser in that case. A Victim wants to be rid of their Abuser and accepts assistance in being rid of them.
                      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                        We know why those junkies are ODing. They are used to a specific dose of heroin and even weigh it out. They're dying because fentanyl is being introduced and screws up their dosing. Unlike you, I don't have to use business insider to understand these things, I have the luxury of responding to them directly. And hearing straight from the families or from the addict themselves "I used the same weight I always use". Fentanyl is killing what are basically 'functioning' addicts because it's being introduced in unpredictable amounts and screws up dosing. These addicts also typically shoot up at home and alone, like their morning routine, which is why we find them in bathrooms getting dressed or getting undressed after work.

                        What we are finding is a progressively younger addict that is starting directly on ILLEGAL narcotics.

                        But regardless, you have still not answered my question. To reiterate it for you:

                        So what is the answer?

                        You're incredibly quick to blame 'overprescribing' which makes it a 'societal' matter and means that tax dollars and the public's time and effort should be poured out endlessly to assist these helpless individuals that are victims of a societal issue.

                        Should we require doctors to document why they prescribed a narcotic pain medication and why NO OTHER non-narcotic pain medication would suffice, under penalty of imprisonment?

                        Should we require those getting prescription medications submit to warrentless searches vis a vis probation to determine whether they're consuming these medications as prescribed?

                        If they're helpless victims who are unable to make personal choices, then that is precisely what we should do.....

                        These are adult human beings, and having been given a choice, chose to consume narcotic pain medication at a level above that which was necessary to reasonably manage their pain. To consume it at a level at which they were 'high'. And subsequent to this consumption, in the absence of pain so great that it continues to require narcotic pain medication to manage, they continued to source narcotics.

                        Not only that, but after having become addicted to abusing narcotics, they take no advantage of numerous clinics, programs, and other mechanisms which society put in place to assist them in reaching release from their addiction.

                        Instead society has, through its utterly insane methodology of feeling good, created programs to PROVIDE needles to drug abusers in the hopes that they will not spread disease further. PROVIDE life-saving remedies to drug abusers without cost to the abuser, sanction, penalty, or requirement. DECRIMINALIZE Schedule I narcotics (narcotics with NO KNOWN MEDICAL USE) located at the scene of a reported overdose in an effort to get abusers to call for help.

                        You blame society for these ills through 'overprescribing', a charge which can be leveled at will but removed from examination of millions of medical records which cannot be examined due to HIPAA, cannot be proven nor disproven.

                        I blame society for making the abuse of narcotics on the user level a consequence free environment. Get your free needles, go get your dope, overdose and call for EMS or LEOs to save you with NARCAN. Refuse to get any help or participate in any program or indeed provide payment for services provided at hundreds or thousands of dollars of expense, and simply repeat the procedure. That is not a victim. Society is the victim of the abuser in that case. A Victim wants to be rid of their Abuser and accepts assistance in being rid of them.
                        I would offer that the solution is simpler than many people thing, but far, far harder to bring about. And neither party has the political will to create a solution, because they both have half the puzzle.

                        Look at conservative staples like job creation and stable families.

                        Look at liberal staples like fighting poverty and health services.

                        Both also recognize the prime issue with crime.

                        The answer is simple - fix X, Y and Z - but actually doing things like breaking cycles of poverty or creating significant employment aren't easy to bring about at all. We know what needs to happen to help minimize the dangers and damages, but not how to truly do it.

                        And as has been shown here, plenty are content to just let druggies die because it was their choice. This is not far removed from other social problems: the average American doesn't care enough about inner city crime or the implosion of rural communities to be inconvenienced to work at fixing it.

                        Add into that a heavy dose of political grandstanding by both sides, and you end up with tacit support for the status quo. If fixing those fundamental issues were easy, we'd do it. Sadly, they're not.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                          I would offer that the solution is simpler than many people thing, but far, far harder to bring about. And neither party has the political will to create a solution, because they both have half the puzzle.

                          Look at conservative staples like job creation and stable families.

                          Look at liberal staples like fighting poverty and health services.

                          Both also recognize the prime issue with crime.

                          The answer is simple - fix X, Y and Z - but actually doing things like breaking cycles of poverty or creating significant employment aren't easy to bring about at all. We know what needs to happen to help minimize the dangers and damages, but not how to truly do it.

                          And as has been shown here, plenty are content to just let druggies die because it was their choice. This is not far removed from other social problems: the average American doesn't care enough about inner city crime or the implosion of rural communities to be inconvenienced to work at fixing it.

                          Add into that a heavy dose of political grandstanding by both sides, and you end up with tacit support for the status quo. If fixing those fundamental issues were easy, we'd do it. Sadly, they're not.
                          There is a false narrative that correlates low income and educational achievement with drug abuse.

                          Common drugs not generally associated with debilitating addiction over limited use periods are roughly abused somewhat evenly across social economic status.

                          https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedc...1747-597X-5-19

                          When discussing drugs that are generally considered to pose a high risk of addiction all social economic classes have seen an increase.

                          https://willingway.com/income-drug-alcohol-abuse/

                          The evidence suggests that it is not poverty itself that drives drug abuse but the subculture that an individual is exposed to. The drug being abused also correlates with subculture. For example with higher status youths alcohol abuse is more prevalent than in lower SES individuals.

                          Evidence suggests that any animal placed in an environment where drugs are easily available will abuse them. I blame the blank slate liberals and their obsession with nurture as an explanation for everything for the failure to educate our youth as to their vulnerability as apes to drug abuse. This anti science mindset has prevented realistic discussions of the fundamental causes of drug addiction for generations.
                          We hunt the hunters

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

                            Evidence suggests that any animal placed in an environment where drugs are easily available will abuse them.
                            Drugs are easily available everywhere though.
                            Wisdom is personal

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post
                              Like I said, sell opioids blame everyone else; sound capitalism.

                              Also, addiction has nothing to do with being stupid.

                              If you wanna talk about stupid: I posted an article regarding the opioid problem a while ago and it got a whopping one reply. Or, how about this: how stupid do you need to be to think that letting addicts die will solve the issue? I mean...think about it. Think twice. Think thrice. If you still didn't figure it out: as long as there are people there is a never ending supply of new addicts.
                              Addiction has everything to do with being stupid. They chose to try the drugs that are killing them. No one forced them to.

                              As long as there are people there'll be addicts? True but we'll be saving money and darwinism will ensure the population stays low because they'll be dying off faster. Sounds capitalism? You bet your ass it does and that's why I like it. If they're too stupid to stay off drugs there's no point in wrecking ourselves trying to save them.

                              Easy for you to be generous with our money but not as much for us. And how hard should you fight to keep a house from burning down when the owner is actively trying to burn it down himself?
                              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                                There is a false narrative that correlates low income and educational achievement with drug abuse.

                                Common drugs not generally associated with debilitating addiction over limited use periods are roughly abused somewhat evenly across social economic status.

                                https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedc...1747-597X-5-19

                                When discussing drugs that are generally considered to pose a high risk of addiction all social economic classes have seen an increase.

                                https://willingway.com/income-drug-alcohol-abuse/

                                The evidence suggests that it is not poverty itself that drives drug abuse but the subculture that an individual is exposed to. The drug being abused also correlates with subculture. For example with higher status youths alcohol abuse is more prevalent than in lower SES individuals.

                                Evidence suggests that any animal placed in an environment where drugs are easily available will abuse them. I blame the blank slate liberals and their obsession with nurture as an explanation for everything for the failure to educate our youth as to their vulnerability as apes to drug abuse. This anti science mindset has prevented realistic discussions of the fundamental causes of drug addiction for generations.
                                Scientific American says pretty much the opposite: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...not-the-cause/

                                The final major risk factor for addiction is economic insecurity and poverty, particularly unemployment and the hopelessness, social marginalization and lack of structure that often accompany it. For example, heroin addiction rates among people who make less than $20,000 a year are 3.4 times higher than in people who make over $50,000. To those who study the effects of inequality on health, it is no coincidence that the collapse of the white middle class has been accompanied by a rise in all types of addictions, but especially addiction to opioids.

                                Further, at least half of people with opioid addictions also have a mental illness or personality disorder. The precursors to these problems are often evident in childhood, too. For example, children who are extremely impulsive are at high riskóbut on the opposite end of the scale, so, too are children who are highly cautious and anxious. To reach these kids, we donít need to label them, but we do need to provide tools that are tailored to their specific issues to prevent them from using drugs to manage those issues.

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