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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Need a hanky?

    Nah. I'll make more after I retire than I do now.

    But you're going to be reaping the whirlwind in a few years.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      Not true in the LE field.

      The job and the compensation system is geared to career service.

      There is no fear of being laid off, or your agency being bought out.

      You hire on and don't screw up, you are assured a job until you choose to retire.
      But that is the point. The LE field works the "old way" but society doesn't. You don't get the brightest and the best or whatever because your system is not up to par with what such people can get from any other job.
      Wisdom is personal

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Karri View Post
        But that is the point. The LE field works the "old way" but society doesn't. You don't get the brightest and the best or whatever because your system is not up to par with what such people can get from any other job.
        It does seem modeled on the rust belt style of management and labor relations: strong unions, government protections, and an expectation that as long as you don't screw up, you're guaranteed a job for life and a good pension afterwards. Sorta like the US automotive industry, actually - just collapsing for different reasons.

        Who knows, maybe they'll outsource the work as well to try and make ends meet. Or we'll have to reconsider that wall and bring in more illegals - after all, being an LE is, like a manual laborer, evidently another job that Americans don't want to do. There's a Home Depot a few blocks away where I bet we could pick up a dozen guys willing to work for pennies on the dollar enforcing the law.

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        • #19
          There's still a huge issue of trust that has never been addressed. When there's video of officers stomping the face of a man while he's on the ground in cuffs, when racist e-mails are being surfaced, when officers are wearing shirts that taunt legitimate activists (not BLM), what type of response do you expect? Should they not be weary?

          It's fine to be pro-LEO while still accepting the fact that they work for the community. As such when the community has concerns, they need to be addressed and not brushed off as though LE is perfect. No one wins until both sides are open to honest dialogue.
          "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
          - Benjamin Franklin

          The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Karri View Post
            But that is the point. The LE field works the "old way" but society doesn't. You don't get the brightest and the best or whatever because your system is not up to par with what such people can get from any other job.
            And as usual you do not understand. Let me try to explain it in very simple terms:

            No one stays in police work for the money. They do it because the idea of wearing body armor, two+ handguns, and carrying an assault rifle in the car is something that is just too wonderful to fully explain. The idea that someone will try to kill you at work is one of the reasons you go to work.

            You must enjoy conflict, confrontation, stress, and the constant potential of violence. And violence itself.

            In the best of times 80% of Academy graduates do not remain in law enforcement, because they joined for all the wrong reasons.

            In any agency you have the LEOs are are not going to survive the five year burnout, some oddballs who are there for no explainable reason and who make up much of the scandals, the puzzle-masters who go into investigations, and the real police, who will do it as long as they are physically able, and even beyond.

            The street has changed only in that it is rougher. The standards that officers must meet on the street has not changed. No amount of education or training can create a police officer; the applicant has to bring the ability with them. Training simply refines the core ability.

            You can train a monkey to do most jobs. But for a job where you are hated by your customer base, where violence is inevitable, where confrontation and hostility are regular is not daily events, and where you deal with Human suffering at its worst, you need truly exceptional people.

            You don't send ducks to herd wolves. You send wolfhounds.

            The current generation is not producing enough wolfhounds. It is too weak.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              And as usual you do not understand. Let me try to explain it in very simple terms:

              No one stays in police work for the money. They do it because the idea of wearing body armor, two+ handguns, and carrying an assault rifle in the car is something that is just too wonderful to fully explain. The idea that someone will try to kill you at work is one of the reasons you go to work.

              You must enjoy conflict, confrontation, stress, and the constant potential of violence. And violence itself.

              In the best of times 80% of Academy graduates do not remain in law enforcement, because they joined for all the wrong reasons.

              In any agency you have the LEOs are are not going to survive the five year burnout, some oddballs who are there for no explainable reason and who make up much of the scandals, the puzzle-masters who go into investigations, and the real police, who will do it as long as they are physically able, and even beyond.

              The street has changed only in that it is rougher. The standards that officers must meet on the street has not changed. No amount of education or training can create a police officer; the applicant has to bring the ability with them. Training simply refines the core ability.

              You can train a monkey to do most jobs. But for a job where you are hated by your customer base, where violence is inevitable, where confrontation and hostility are regular is not daily events, and where you deal with Human suffering at its worst, you need truly exceptional people.

              You don't send ducks to herd wolves. You send wolfhounds.

              The current generation is not producing enough wolfhounds. It is too weak.
              Every generation blames its successors for their own failures as parents and guardians.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                Every generation blames its successors for their own failures as parents and guardians.
                That just an excuse coined by losers to dodge personal responsibly. They have accepted they will never accomplish anything in life, so they blame their upbringing, therefore admitting that they are too worthless to overcome simple habits.

                You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

                There comes a point in every nation when the new generations simply cannot measure up. In 1944 teenagers hit the beaches at Normandy. In 2016 they had hysterics because an election didn't go the way they wanted.

                Today too few seek out challenges, take real risks, and accomplish anything of value; those that do are the ones in a society that matter. The rest are just large plankton.
                Last edited by Arnold J Rimmer; 05 May 17, 09:23.
                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                Comment


                • #23
                  More young people are becoming entrepreneurs than ever before. Today, it's not uncommon to see teenagers run successful businesses which was unheard of back in the 50's. That's not indicative of a generation unwilling to take risks and seek challenges.

                  Military enlistment would be on-par as well if the government wasn't downsizing it.

                  Post secondary education is also at its highest compared to generations of old.
                  "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                    I think it's about time for a true race-sensitive cop to patrol the city...

                    Mr. Kinney disagrees:

                    BoRG
                    "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
                      There's still a huge issue of trust that has never been addressed. When there's video of officers stomping the face of a man while he's on the ground in cuffs, when racist e-mails are being surfaced, when officers are wearing shirts that taunt legitimate activists (not BLM), what type of response do you expect? Should they not be weary?

                      It's fine to be pro-LEO while still accepting the fact that they work for the community. As such when the community has concerns, they need to be addressed and not brushed off as though LE is perfect. No one wins until both sides are open to honest dialogue.
                      This is the heart of the issue. There are those who simply can't resist a rallying cry of "racism" or are terrified of every being merely accused of being on the wrong side of that issue. And there are actual racists or at least an acceptance of a culture of racism.

                      I think Ferguson is a great example of both. I have little problem with the shooting of Micheal Brown based on the evidence I have seen. And yet I fully understand why the black community likely suspects that everything and anything the police do is racially motivated.

                      Unfortunately this will be the future. The far left Democrats can't have a rational discussion on law enforcement or immigration enforcement. The agenda of the hardcore libertarian wing of the Republican party will generate a series of "failed" counties or states as poor become poorer and government becomes increasingly less effective or entirely absent.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                        Nah. I'll make more after I retire than I do now.

                        But you're going to be reaping the whirlwind in a few years.
                        I doubt that. I didn't put away a lot of people known to carry lethal grudges for life...but you did.

                        I, OTH, saved a lot of lives and built up enormous goodwill.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                          And as usual you do not understand. Let me try to explain it in very simple terms:
                          Don't you ever find it strange that you understand everything and no one else understand nothing?

                          Don't you find it a bit strange that you say the streets are getting tougher, yet supposedly the new generations are more and more cowardly?

                          I suppose you don't. That is why I don't find it strange that you do not understand how the world works today. And I guess that is why you think so highly of yourself.

                          Just aint that way bro. Also, I never said it's about money, that is again your perception of whatever.
                          Last edited by Karri; 06 May 17, 13:35.
                          Wisdom is personal

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Karri View Post
                            Don't you ever find it strange that you understand everything and no one else understand nothing?
                            I mainly say that to you, while attempting to help you understand.

                            Originally posted by Karri View Post
                            Don't you find it a bit strange that you say the streets are getting tougher, yet supposedly the new generations are more and more cowardly?
                            No, because unlike you I have have experience in the society I am discussing.

                            The slice of society we draw police recruits from is not the portion of society we police. In the USA crime is concentrated in a very specific portion of the populace. This is just another thing you don't understand, because you do not understand the USA.

                            Originally posted by Karri View Post
                            I suppose you don't. That is why I don't find it strange that you do not understand how the world works today. And I guess that is why you think so highly of yourself.
                            I understand very well how the world works. You, who dropped out of school and whose life experience is both short and narrow, simply do not have the tools to grasp how little you know, and lack the strength of character to learn.

                            Originally posted by Karri View Post
                            Just aint that way bro. Also, I never said it's about money, that is again your perception of whatever.
                            You simply do not grasp the situation.

                            It is really fun watching you pretend to, though.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post
                              Don't you ever find it strange that you understand everything and no one else understand nothing?

                              Don't you find it a bit strange that you say the streets are getting tougher, yet supposedly the new generations are more and more cowardly?

                              The predators haven't changed. But among the ranks of those with a modicum of moral compass who can be trusted, there is a dearth both of strength of character and courage. To put it in metaphorical terms, the wolf is no stronger or weaker than he was previously, he just is. The sheep remain sheep just as they were. But the quality of breeding of the sheepdog, that class of human that rides in the narrow band between sheep and wolf, where you get your Soldiers, your Police, and your Firefighters, where you have to have a combination of courage and willingness to deprive yourself of the comforts of being a sheep, but also the moral fiber to not succumb to the easy gains of being a wolf.......that narrow band is getting narrower by the day.

                              I suppose you don't. That is why I don't find it strange that you do not understand how the world works today. And I guess that is why you think so highly of yourself.
                              It doesn't matter how this generation thinks the world works. The business world cannot be applied to human interaction. Of course we're talking about a generation that literally doesn't speak on a DATE for pete's sake....they text through it.

                              Sure, the world of commerce has changed. The world of business has changed. People might change careers twice within a fairly general field and work a half dozen jobs before they retire. But none of that affects how the REAL world works when it comes to human interaction.

                              In short, there are certain lines of work where 'changing jobs' and 'changing careers' simply isn't an option for society to continue to function. Opinions, feelings, and the like are irrelevant. Jobs where a couple of years of schooling don't account for hard earned experience, and where attempting to do the job with anything less is a recipie for disaster. And those jobs are as follows:

                              Soldier
                              Pilot
                              Police Officer
                              Firefighter
                              Doctor


                              You wouldn't want a doctor with less than 5 years experience running the OR for your major surgery. You wouldn't want a firefighter with less than 5 years experience running a station when your daughter is pinned against a guardrail and the car is in a precarious position. You wouldn't want a cop with less than 5 years experience supervising an active shooter scene....or hell running into your childs school where every decision will be life or death for someone. And you wouldn't want to fly the friendly skies with a captain of less than 5 years flying experience.....

                              There's a reason that some professions are callings....and some are jobs. And as an FTO, part of my job is to weed out those that think being a cop is a 'job'. The ones that want to be here, we can train. The ones that want an 8-5 with guaranteed holidays and no calls to work on their weekend off, I direct them to a career in the world as 'you describe it'.

                              And as I write this, I'm waiting for the dryer to finish with a uniform....because I got called in, on my Saturday night, to work an extra shift.
                              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                                +1 to AJRs comments. Currently we're running very light on experience on the street. I'm in the top half of experience on the street that's not a supervisor.....that would have been unheard of 8-10 years ago when I started.

                                Hiring standards have dropped, in my agency not because the ones on paper were purposely dropped, but because we're having to accept who applies rather than selecting from a pool of 10-20 for each slot. Our jail is perennially short on manpower for example, and so is the street. We're trying to add 3 more to the SWAT team but there just aren't qualified applicants right now.

                                You still get some decent ones from the 'dynasties', IOW my dad/mom was a cop and I'm getting into the family business. We're lucky enough to be relatively close to a bunch of bases, so we get soldiers and Marines which tend to have a decent work ethic and some idea of the nature of the job.

                                But overall, the cadet quality has dropped to the point where a lot of us are gravely concerned about 10 years down the road. A lot of college graduates that don't want to work the hours demanded, don't comprehend chain of command, lazy, and ill prepared mentally or physically for the job (sometimes both).

                                And among the long-serving veterans, morale got a bump when Trump was elected, because we know that at least for 4 years we don't have the DoJ on a witch hunt to destroy good cops. But expect a mass exodus regardless of administration in about 10 years, and if someone like Obama or Hillary was to be elected next go-round, expect that exodus to bump up substantially as guys 'age out' rather than pull the full 30, or take early retirement packages and go on to other jobs for their last 15 working years or so. And with them goes thousands of hours of training apiece (I've got just under a thousand hours now, and I expect to hit around 2000 hours before my 15th year) plus experience that in many cases is invaluable and cannot be quantified.

                                The days of the 28 year patrol sergeant who has seen it all are quickly disappearing. Today's cadets are already voicing expectations of making detective in 3-5 years, and will swap agencies to make that happen or burn out when their expectations aren't met. IMHO, a cop isn't worth the cost of his kit until he hits the 5 year mark. It takes that long to gain the experience and maturity that his sergeant can leave him be for a shift and not worry about him screwing up.
                                What's wrong with moving agencies to get ahead?

                                A quick google of our former local chief constable shows that she changed force four times before becoming Surrey Chief Constable. Surely those on a senior command career path are going to move around a lot, even in the US?

                                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Owens
                                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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