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And Who Believes Russia is Not an Enemy?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
    They seemed to have thrown United States into turmoil.
    No, we're throwing ourselves into turmoil.
    ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

    BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

    BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

      I'm still waiting to see specifics on how Russia manipulated the votes cast or their count ???
      It's not what they accomplished, it's what they tried to accomplish. Only Israel is allowed to meddle in US politics.

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      • #93
        When we do it, by proxy or otherwise, that's alright?

        We have no moral authority in regard...

        We meddle, also!

        On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

        ACG History Today

        BoRG

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        • #94
          Originally posted by johns624 View Post
          It's not what they accomplished, it's what they tried to accomplish. Only Israel is allowed to meddle in US politics.
          Those are actually New York Israelis.
          My worst jump story:
          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
          No lie.

          ~
          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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          • #95
            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
            It's not what they accomplished, it's what they tried to accomplish. Only Israel is allowed to meddle in US politics.
            People as Sanders and Soros .

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Massena View Post
              Yes, and 'if you had any brains' you'd realize it. And there isn't any indication that the US and Russia are headed for open warfare.
              Then why would you characterize Russia as our "enemy"? Enemy is a pretty loaded word. If I'm faced with an enemy, my inclination is to eliminate that enemy -- be any means necessary. That's what you do to enemies: you kill them. If Russia is our enemy, then we have no choice but to seriously consider the remedy of war, and to plan accordingly. Surely you can appreciate the enormity of such a strategic imperative.

              If, on the other hand, Russia is to be viewed not as an enemy, but as a rival, then our strategic choices multiply many times over. Our rivalry can be blunted, co-opted, perhaps even turned into a friendship with enough time and clever thinking and wily diplomacy. Al Qaeda is an enemy, incapable of tolerable coexistence. Russia is a rival, and the US relationship with Russia will be fraught with many ups and downs, but there exists a genuine and undeniable potential for a more fruitful relationship in the not too distant future. That's the difference between "enemy" and "rival," and one that you should have acknowledged up front when you launched this thread. Failing to do so brings us into the realm of hyperbole and histrionics. Can't speak for you, but of that I've had more than my fill.

              Originally posted by Massena View Post
              However, the Trump administration, especially Trump himself, have been progressively cozying up to the Russians and that is not in the best interest of the United States.
              Trump's and Trump administration figures' . . . . relations with various Russian government personnel have made me very nervous, nervous about their judgement, and nervous about their intentions. That being said, blaming Hillary's loss on "Russian election hacking" is not only disingenuous, it's potentially harmful to both nations. "Cozying up" no doubt creates real questions about Trump & Co, but painting the Russians as some kind of Antichrist is downright ridiculous, and patently counterproductive.

              Originally posted by Massena View Post
              Russia does not have the economy to engage in any type of warfare with the United States or any other capable power in the world for over two weeks. They have shown that in Ukraine. They are, however, very well equipped to murder civilians in Syria and Ukraine.
              Then what kind of "enemy" are they?
              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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              • #97
                You don't have to be in open warfare to be an enemy.

                Do you believe what the Russians did during the last election was 'benign'?
                We are not now that strength which in old days
                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by slick_miester View Post



                  Trump's and Trump administration figures' . . . . relations with various Russian government personnel have made me very nervous, nervous about their judgement, and nervous about their intentions. That being said, blaming Hillary's loss on "Russian election hacking" is not only disingenuous, it's potentially harmful to both nations. "Cozying up" no doubt creates real questions about Trump & Co, but painting the Russians as some kind of Antichrist is downright ridiculous, and patently counterproductive.
                  It makes me nervous too, that's why it's neccessary to get to the bottom of it and let the facts speak for itself. Wanting to get the facts out isn't the same as blaming Russia for Hillary's loss.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                    5 ) There is NO such thing as the rule of law and no sanctity of treaties .And this is a good thing .
                    There's the problem right there, attitude. No one wants to invest in Russia because there is no rule of law, only corruption. No one wants to make treaties with Russia because Russia can't be trusted to abide by them. So long as Putin is in power there can be no trust in making deals with Russia.

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                    • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                      You don't have to be in open warfare to be an enemy.
                      Are you suggesting that you normally allow your enemies to live?

                      Originally posted by Massena View Post
                      Do you believe what the Russians did during the last election was 'benign'?
                      No worse than what the Soviets had done since 1917 -- and most liberal-progressives responded like trained seals. No worse than what Nixon's "Plumbers" did in '72 -- for which Tricky Dick was pardoned. US tried to influence Panama's national elections in 1989: Manuel Noriega won anyway. Took care of his ass later that year, if I recall correctly. Bear in mind that not a one of those acts earned my approval, not by a damned sight. So how is it that Russia's actions in 2016 are worthy of hellfire and brimstone, when similar actions by other actors weren't, or similar actions out of Moscow but under a different regime have also been immune from criticism? Once upon a time Bill & Hillary Clinton were all too happy to carry the USSR's intellectual water. Despite such a questionable pedigree, the Clinton's served two terms in the White House, and had the 2016 Election generated a different result, they'd have gotten a third. I am in no way condoning Trump's or Russia's conduct during the 2016 Presidential Election, but I am curious why Russian dirty tricks and questionable associations among well-placed Americans never drew this kind of criticism before.

                      Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                      It makes me nervous too, that's why it's neccessary to get to the bottom of it and let the facts speak for itself. Wanting to get the facts out isn't the same as blaming Russia for Hillary's loss.
                      For what it's worth, I agree: a proper investigation is absolutely essential. That being said, however, it can't be ignored that Hillary lost the election as a result of her own choices and actions -- and it can't be ignored that Hillary's partisans want the record rewritten to omit any reference to Hillary's mind-numbingly lousy campaign choices. Hillary's partisans' credibility is on the line, and they're so desperate for Putin to play the patsy that they're willing to say and do anything to keep blame from falling on themselves or their horse. In that respect, Hillary's partisans are every bit as pathetic and mendacious and delusional as Trump's. Birds of a feather, if you will . . . .
                      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                      • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                        Are you suggesting that you normally allow your enemies to live?
                        Yes-annihilation is a Russian principle of war, not a US one.
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
                          So long as Putin is in power there can be no trust in making deals with Russia.
                          The same for the US,Britain,etc,etc..

                          When NK invaded SKorea, US intervened.

                          When Iraq invaded Iran, US sold weapons to ....Iraq

                          When Britain invaded Egypt in 1956, US protested.

                          When Turkey invaded Cyprus, US looked the other way

                          When India invaded Pakistan , no US reaction .

                          Turkey has invaded Syria,no US reaction.

                          When Saddam killed thousands of Kurds with CW, no US reaction,but when Syrians are killed by CW, madam Hailey is indignant ...


                          Rule of law,sanctity of treaties : only hypocrisy .

                          Canadians fought in Korea, but they were conspiciously absent in Iran.

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                          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            The same for the US,Britain,etc,etc..

                            When NK invaded SKorea, US intervened.

                            When Iraq invaded Iran, US sold weapons to ....Iraq

                            When Britain invaded Egypt in 1956, US protested.

                            When Turkey invaded Cyprus, US looked the other way

                            When India invaded Pakistan , no US reaction .

                            Turkey has invaded Syria,no US reaction.

                            When Saddam killed thousands of Kurds with CW, no US reaction,but when Syrians are killed by CW, madam Hailey is indignant ...


                            Rule of law,sanctity of treaties : only hypocrisy .

                            Canadians fought in Korea, but they were conspiciously absent in Iran.
                            The world is messy isn't it? USA can't go everywhere, do every thing can it? United States has held to alliances with like minded liberal democracies, like NATO, hasn't it?. Some of those examples can be easily dismissed. United States supported a Canadian UN resolution to solve the Suez crisis, for example. India and Pakistan at least remained contained, why should the USA have gone there BTW? Anyway, Russia is very welcome to join the world community of nations anytime they decide they don't want to be thugs and crooks anymore.

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                            • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                              Do you believe what the Russians did during the last election was 'benign'?
                              Has anyone released actionable intel on what Russia did during the election? I ask this because I have seen a lot of speculation from all sides but I haven't been able to find anything solid.

                              If the Russians did do what we think they did, it would be as benign as what the Democrats did to Bernie.
                              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                              • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                                Yes-annihilation is a Russian principle of war, not a US one.
                                So we've retired our nuke force?
                                Credo quia absurdum.


                                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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