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The Proposed Budget and Education

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  • The Proposed Budget and Education

    The new education secretary is against public schools. Apparently so is Trump. And neither of them attended public schools and are in favor of business being involved in 'reforming' public schools. They certainly don't understand that education is not a 'for profit' institution.

    And to my mind if you're against public education, you're also against teachers, which is monstrous.

    The new budget is all-but abolishing funding for after school programs and the free lunch program for poor students. Mulvaney's comment yesterday is that there is no proof that after school programs and feeding poor students helps in education. That just isn't true.

    However, in the new proposed budget there is 1.4 billion for charter school funding, a private school 'choice' program, and a 'fund portability program' which is a new term for a voucher program. All that funding would be taken away from the public school system.

    The public school system has problems, but they are problems that can be fixed, especially in states that don't have a teachers' union (right to work states).

    However, getting rid of the public school system, which is DeVos' agenda, will no improve education in the United States, it will only make it worse.

  • #2
    Good for the SecEd!
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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    • #3
      Public schools shouldn't be welfare centers, day care centers, or soup kitchens. But, it seems to some, particularly on the Left, that they should be. That's what the free breakfast / lunch program is. That's what all day kindergarten amounts to. After school programs are often the same thing.

      Maybe rather than more of that crap the government and society should be doing something to discourage single motherhood... The single largest source of poverty and poor home life for kids there is.

      More money won't fix education in the US. Higher expectations and harder classwork likely would. Get rid of the social justice and welfare crap schools do. Stop trying to "mainstream" the seriously and severely handicapped.

      Make teachers prove on a regular basis that they're competent in their subject matter. Make public schools compete.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        Good for the SecEd!
        And good for Trump. Public schools are one our largest national disgraces.

        Comment


        • #5
          In real dollars, inflation adjusted, public education costs are about 4-5 times what they were when I did the school thing back about 50 years ago. The product is at best half as good as it was then. My perspective being that of parent and grandparent over the past 2-3 decades and seeing the results first hand.

          The problems aren't going to be solved by throwing more money at them, we all ready throw more money towards education than we should. Administration staff is one example of being excessively overpaid, about double (at least) of what the job is worth.

          Leaving the education of the public to only a guv'mint venue where there is no competition, no need for productivity, limited and ineffective accountability and the solution is always "more money" just reinforces the deficit and debt mentality that is driving our economy and nation toward ruin.
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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          • #6
            When did the SecEd say she was against public schools?
            "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nichols View Post
              When did the SecEd say she was against public schools?
              Good question. By not citing a source the OP implies it's all in the imagination, or bias, or prejudice.
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Massena View Post
                The new education secretary is against public schools. Apparently so is Trump. And neither of them attended public schools and are in favor of business being involved in 'reforming' public schools. They certainly don't understand that education is not a 'for profit' institution.

                And to my mind if you're against public education, you're also against teachers, which is monstrous.

                The new budget is all-but abolishing funding for after school programs and the free lunch program for poor students. Mulvaney's comment yesterday is that there is no proof that after school programs and feeding poor students helps in education. That just isn't true.

                However, in the new proposed budget there is 1.4 billion for charter school funding, a private school 'choice' program, and a 'fund portability program' which is a new term for a voucher program. All that funding would be taken away from the public school system.

                The public school system has problems, but they are problems that can be fixed, especially in states that don't have a teachers' union (right to work states).

                However, getting rid of the public school system, which is DeVos' agenda, will no improve education in the United States, it will only make it worse.
                You sound like a teacher that is afraid of having to actually teach. Competition is good. The best teachers should be feted like rock stars and the best schools look like the house of God. The worst teachers should be digging ditches.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                  You sound like a teacher that is afraid of having to actually teach. Competition is good. The best teachers should be feted like rock stars and the best schools look like the house of God. The worst teachers should be digging ditches.
                  Yet the problem of that approach is that it is not the best teachers who get rated the best but those who happen to get students perform best in the tests. Since that determines it all your 'best' teachers are not teaching the students for anything else than for the tests. Which doesn't actually produce good results in the real life...

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_to_the_test
                  It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                    You sound like a teacher that is afraid of having to actually teach. Competition is good. The best teachers should be feted like rock stars and the best schools look like the house of God. The worst teachers should be digging ditches.
                    That is a lousy, and very inaccurate, thing to say. I always taught and didn't rely on 'gee-whiz' material to get information across to the students. I also taught all four required subjects (math, English, history, and science). So, unless you have first-hand knowledge of teaching and how to teach, I would recommend that inaccurate pejorative personal comments should be left out of a conversation.

                    And the idea of 'competition' is not the point. The idea that the new education secretary is attempting to emasculate or get rid of public schools is the issue. Over 90 percent of the teachers that I worked with were excellent-dedicated, worked hard, and were for the students.

                    As I have said before, the main problem is the administrators. Too many of them do not know what they're doing and are not skilled in being an administrator or a teacher. The school principal is supposed to be the 'teacher's teacher' and if they don't have the experience level they cannot be expected to attempt to teach experienced teachers who are successful and have been on the platform for over ten years.

                    And the attempt at privatization, which includes the misguided idea of making schools a money-making concern, is against education in general disregarding what schools are supposed to be for. And the idea that Trump backs this idea is in itself a danger signal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                      When did the SecEd say she was against public schools?
                      I would suggest that you take a look at Diane Ravitch's blog regarding education in the US.

                      She is an education historian and worked for both Democratic and Republican administrations in the Department of Education and is a professor emeritus.

                      She is also an excellent author on the subject and I highly recommend, if you are actually interested in American education, two of her books-Reign of Error and The Language Police.

                      Here are examples from her blog:

                      https://dianeravitch.net/2017/03/17/...ion-president/

                      https://dianeravitch.net/2017/03/17/...the-naysayers/

                      https://dianeravitch.net/2017/03/16/...cutive-orders/

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                        When did the SecEd say she was against public schools?
                        Both Trump and DeVos back the proposed bill HR 610, The Choices in Education Act. This bill will, if passed, negate the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965. Further, it would repeal the nutritional standards of The Healthy and Hunger Free Kids Act of 2010. It would also give block funding to states to fund schools of all types.

                        The repeal of the 1965 act in itself should sound warning bells.

                        The public schools do have problems, but all of them can be fixed if attention is paid to it. And too much state testing is one of the problems faced now. Teachers are now rated on test performance, which is ludicrous because teachers have no control of who they teach. That forces teachers to teach to the test instead of teaching according to the curriculum and making classes, especially in history and science, more interesting for the students.

                        My son is a sophomore in a local public high school and his teachers are of a very high caliber with a principal who knows what he is doing. A good principal means a good school, just as in the military service a good commander means a good unit. And I have considerable experience in both fields of endeavor-a total of 47 years.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                          In real dollars, inflation adjusted, public education costs are about 4-5 times what they were when I did the school thing back about 50 years ago. The product is at best half as good as it was then. My perspective being that of parent and grandparent over the past 2-3 decades and seeing the results first hand.

                          The problems aren't going to be solved by throwing more money at them, we all ready throw more money towards education than we should. Administration staff is one example of being excessively overpaid, about double (at least) of what the job is worth.

                          Leaving the education of the public to only a guv'mint venue where there is no competition, no need for productivity, limited and ineffective accountability and the solution is always "more money" just reinforces the deficit and debt mentality that is driving our economy and nation toward ruin.
                          Brilliantly said!

                          The public school system is failing. Costs climb while the quality of the product declines: a recipe for failure.

                          Something has to be done, and 'more of the same' is not going to improve anything.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                            In real dollars, inflation adjusted, public education costs are about 4-5 times what they were when I did the school thing back about 50 years ago. The product is at best half as good as it was then. My perspective being that of parent and grandparent over the past 2-3 decades and seeing the results first hand.
                            Education is labor intensive and the productivity of the labor cannot be improved. It takes X minutes to teach an average child Y. This is analogous to live music. It takes a string quartet 4:30 min to play a certain concerto and there's nothing that live musicians can do to play it any faster (without turning into Alvin & the Chipmunks).

                            The problems aren't going to be solved by throwing more money at them, we all ready throw more money towards education than we should.
                            The labor cost of teaching is always going to increase. When you cut the cost, increase classroom size, shorten hours, etc. you end up with lower quality of education.

                            Administration staff is one example of being excessively overpaid, about double (at least) of what the job is worth.
                            Not overpaid so much as overstaffed. Cut out the paperwork and the administrators. If any level of government wants to collect data on what is going on at schools then they should fund short or long term research using staff hired from outside the school system and budget.


                            Leaving the education of the public to only a guv'mint venue where there is no competition, no need for productivity, limited and ineffective accountability and the solution is always "more money" just reinforces the deficit and debt mentality that is driving our economy and nation toward ruin.
                            Piffle.

                            Schools don't need competition. That ends up harming students. They need uniform quality that gets improved across the board. Productivity is hardly applicable to teaching as I explained above. Limited and ineffective accountability is a made-up story that declares that there's a problem based on some anecdotes.

                            Take that last paragraph and change "education of the public" to "national defense" to see how hollow it is.

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                            • #15
                              @NoPref

                              Show us how to defund administrative positions and staff without the school systems defunding teachers and actual education to compensate and you'll be roundly touted as a genius.....

                              Nothing is more vile, or more difficult to eradicate, than a government administrative employee.
                              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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