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  • Trump and Obamacare

    Trump had pushed the typical talking points about Obamacare, here is a fact check....

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/1...alth-care.html

  • #2
    Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
    Trump had pushed the typical talking points about Obamacare, here is a fact check....

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/1...alth-care.html
    Did you actually read the article?
    It isn't a fact check, it is "spin" and opinion.


    For instance:
    Mr. Trump pointed to high premium increases.

    “You represent the millions of American who have seen their Obamacare premiums increase by double digits and even triple digits.”

    This needs context. In 2017, premiums for the benchmark plan increased by 22 percent on average across the states that use the federal marketplace or have their own exchanges, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. Some places had higher increases (116 percent in Arizona, the only state with a triple-digit increase) and some lower (9 percent in Wyoming).

    So they admit he has a point, but then decide that he is wrong by adding the "context"
    Specifically:
    "About 84 percent of enrollees qualify for tax credits that help blunt the costs in 2017, meaning the government picks up the tab for any increase. "

    In other words, what trump said is true, but the taxpayer is feeling the burden. And somehow that is a good thing and makes his true statement false.
    In the real world, a 22% increase is a "double digit" increase making trump's statement true.
    Laughable.
    The best evidence that the plan is a disaster is the fact that insurance companies are abandoning it.
    Trump's statements could be wrong, but that article does a poor job of proving it.
    Last edited by Cambronnne; 14 Mar 17, 09:32.
    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
      Trump had pushed the typical talking points about Obamacare, here is a fact check....

      https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/1...alth-care.html
      The NY Times is not a fact check.

      You really don't get US media.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #4
        On the price increases mentioned in the article. They gave the average percentage increase in plans, briefly mentioning the increase in Arizona being 116% the highest and 9% in Wyoming the lowest. What that leaves out is how many people were impacted by various levels of increase.

        The example, using just the above figures and state populations. Arizona has about 7 million people living in it. Wyoming has about 600,000. That's a difference of about 11.67 times more people in Arizona.

        Therefore, 11.67 times more people saw a 116% increase in their health insurance costs than saw a 9% increase. Weighting the increase for the effect of population, the average of that entire population saw a 108% increase in their health premiums. That is, the impact of Arizona's 116% increase far outweighed the 9% increase Wyoming's small population saw.

        So, the 22% is likely greatly watered down and I'd bet the real average increase for the US population was closer to 50%+ this year.

        The NY Times is pedaling half truths and cherry picked data, not informative facts.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
          Did you actually read the article?
          It isn't a fact check, it is "spin" and opinion.


          For instance:
          Mr. Trump pointed to high premium increases.

          “You represent the millions of American who have seen their Obamacare premiums increase by double digits and even triple digits.”

          This needs context. In 2017, premiums for the benchmark plan increased by 22 percent on average across the states that use the federal marketplace or have their own exchanges, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. Some places had higher increases (116 percent in Arizona, the only state with a triple-digit increase) and some lower (9 percent in Wyoming).

          So they admit he has a point, but then decide that he is wrong by adding the "context"
          Specifically:
          "About 84 percent of enrollees qualify for tax credits that help blunt the costs in 2017, meaning the government picks up the tab for any increase. "

          In other words, what trump said is true, but the taxpayer is feeling the burden. And somehow that is a good thing and makes his true statement false.
          In the real world, a 22% increase is a "double digit" increase making trump's statement true.
          Laughable.
          The best evidence that the plan is a disaster is the fact that insurance companies are abandoning it.
          Trump's statements could be wrong, but that article does a poor job of proving it.

          Premiums increased before Obamacare, in Nebraska in 2010 it was a whopping 21.8%, it is not a unique feature or characteristic....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            The NY Times is pedaling half truths and cherry picked data, not informative facts.
            Pretty much standard fare for them. These days the difference between the advertisements and the news in the Times is that the former tend to be more accurate.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
              Premiums increased before Obamacare, in Nebraska in 2010 it was a whopping 21.8%, it is not a unique feature or characteristic....
              Was that in anticipation of this or after it? ....
              ACA = "...and signed into law by President Barack Obama on March 23, 2010..."
              [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act/url]
              (BTW, 1 out of 50 not very representative, nor an average of the 50 as Cambronne mentioned, )
              Meanwhile, all the insurance companies that have dropped out because they loose money on the deal ... and the doctors many didn't get to keep ...

              Bottom-line is if current consumers and/or taxpayers don't pay the full costs, then it gets passed onto the future generations that will pay more, because they will have to pay their own plus ours.

              There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch -TANSTAAFL

              It would seem basic economics is little taught or understood in many European nations, given their (external and public) debt to GDP ratios as shown here;
              http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
                Premiums increased before Obamacare, in Nebraska in 2010 it was a whopping 21.8%, it is not a unique feature or characteristic....
                So? Assuming that you are still talking about Trump a prior increase in premiums isn't relevant.
                Trump said nothing about those.

                He said premiums have increased by double or triple digits.

                Based on what the NYT has to say, that was an undeniably true statement.

                He could be wrong, but the NYT embarrasses itself with its arguments.
                Those sound more like dem talking points than an objective analysis.
                Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  On the price increases mentioned in the article. They gave the average percentage increase in plans, briefly mentioning the increase in Arizona being 116% the highest and 9% in Wyoming the lowest. What that leaves out is how many people were impacted by various levels of increase.

                  The example, using just the above figures and state populations. Arizona has about 7 million people living in it. Wyoming has about 600,000. That's a difference of about 11.67 times more people in Arizona.

                  Therefore, 11.67 times more people saw a 116% increase in their health insurance costs than saw a 9% increase. Weighting the increase for the effect of population, the average of that entire population saw a 108% increase in their health premiums. That is, the impact of Arizona's 116% increase far outweighed the 9% increase Wyoming's small population saw.

                  So, the 22% is likely greatly watered down and I'd bet the real average increase for the US population was closer to 50%+ this year.

                  The NY Times is pedaling half truths and cherry picked data, not informative facts.


                  Well said.
                  Per the DHHS the average increase was 25%:

                  Overall, the average premium increase is 25 percent, according to a report from the Department of Health & Human Services.

                  http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/1...-All-50-States
                  Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                  Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Next year, if Obamacare remains in place, United Health and Blue Cross / Shield will be pulling out of many of the markets. The did this year as well. There will be parts of the US for the FY 2018 open season that have no plans on the Obamacare market places. Additionally, the penalty for not having insurance will have remained in place.

                    This means millions of Americans will be getting penalized by the government for not having something they can't buy. I wonder how that'll play with the public?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Next year, if Obamacare remains in place, United Health and Blue Cross / Shield will be pulling out of many of the markets. The did this year as well. There will be parts of the US for the FY 2018 open season that have no plans on the Obamacare market places. Additionally, the penalty for not having insurance will have remained in place.

                      This means millions of Americans will be getting penalized by the government for not having something they can't buy. I wonder how that'll play with the public?
                      Real world economics 101 is a bitch, especially when you don't understand it and expect some one else to pay your way/costs. The false foundation of programs like ACA/Obamacare.

                      The penalty/tax for not having coverage is the 600 pound gorilla in this scam passed by MaObama and the Regressives proving they are more about lining their own pocketbooks and fleecing the people.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Your president sure has this fixation on Obama and the ACA.......did anybody in your ,US, political system ever consider going to other countries that have a medicare programme and seeing how their,s work....or is it the old IWIHP and that only America had ever thought of medicare or what ever you want to call it.

                        Its sad for the citizens of the US, the so called "richest country in the world" and the only idustrialized country in the Western world that has no universal care for ALL your citizens

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bow View Post
                          Your president sure has this fixation on Obama and the ACA.......did anybody in your ,US, political system ever consider going to other countries that have a medicare programme and seeing how their,s work....or is it the old IWIHP and that only America had ever thought of medicare or what ever you want to call it.

                          Its sad for the citizens of the US, the so called "richest country in the world" and the only idustrialized country in the Western world that has no universal care for ALL your citizens
                          Like many of those "other countries" yours is doing so with debt passed to future generations;
                          http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

                          If yours is so great, why do I see so many Canadian license plates in the parking lots of the local clinics, hospital, etc. ?
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bow View Post
                            Your president sure has this fixation on Obama and the ACA.......did anybody in your ,US, political system ever consider going to other countries that have a medicare programme and seeing how their,s work....or is it the old IWIHP and that only America had ever thought of medicare or what ever you want to call it.

                            Its sad for the citizens of the US, the so called "richest country in the world" and the only idustrialized country in the Western world that has no universal care for ALL your citizens

                            We have a government run healthcare system.
                            It is called the VA and much of it is awful.


                            Mr. Cooper said it’s taken the VA two years to propose firing three senior leaders responsible for the Phoenix VA scandal, “which led to nearly 300 veterans dying waiting for care.”
                            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-after-scand/

                            Perhaps universal healthcare is possible in the US, but the present system is run on delusions.
                            It is collapsing after just 8 years. So wanting to get rid of the ACA is intelligent.
                            Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                            Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              These days the difference between the advertisements and the news in the Times is that the former tend to be more accurate.
                              Well, sure it is... it's call Truth In Advertising... otherwise is illegal.

                              As for the News...


                              On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                              ACG History Today

                              BoRG

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