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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I'm surprised that you openly admit to refusing to enforce Federal laws. That does not speak well for your state, since nothing in the Constitution, law or anything else authorizes a state to act in such a fashion.

    No LEO has any right whatsoever to decide what laws will and will not be enforced. The moment you do, take off your uniform and get out of town. You have just placed yourself completely out of bounds and no citizen has to listen to anything you say any longer.

    If you don't obey the laws, no one else has to either.
    Technically I don't enforce any federal laws either. I haven't been sworn by a federal judge as a federal officer.

    I enforce my state laws and county ordinances.....typically the state has a law to match all the federal laws except interstate ones, some counterfeit stuff, and some regulatory compliance things. In those cases I just forward to the appropriate agency.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
      Technically I don't enforce any federal laws either. I haven't been sworn by a federal judge as a federal officer.

      I enforce my state laws and county ordinances.....typically the state has a law to match all the federal laws except interstate ones, some counterfeit stuff, and some regulatory compliance things. In those cases I just forward to the appropriate agency.
      Question, can I bring charges against local and state officials as a private citizen?

      Seems like I can because I got the city council to back down over Prop. 8 when I threatened them with arrest...
      Credo quia absurdum.


      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
        Question, can I bring charges against local and state officials as a private citizen?

        Seems like I can because I got the city council to back down over Prop. 8 when I threatened them with arrest...
        Yes and no.

        It is much like the question "can I represent myself at a criminal trial": the answer is yes, but only if you are an idiot.

        Technically a citizen's arrest is valid, but local LEOs are not required to secure or transport the offender for you, and the jail is not obligated to accept the prisoner. Meanwhile it is up to the prosecuting body (CA or DA) as to whether they will prosecute.

        Meanwhile, you face all the requirements of meeting the elements of the offense, securing the rights of the accused, employed proper UoF, and complete documentation. Fail in any particular, and you are subject to serious criminal penalties. LE agencies receive a certain amount of leeway because of the duty to act, but a citizen has no such duty, and therefore if your actions are not absolutely textbook, you could be prison-bound.

        In addition, in many states officials may not be arrested except by certain agencies while in the fulfillment of their duties, in which case that answer is an emphatic No.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          Yes and no.

          It is much like the question "can I represent myself at a criminal trial": the answer is yes, but only if you are an idiot.

          Technically a citizen's arrest is valid, but local LEOs are not required to secure or transport the offender for you, and the jail is not obligated to accept the prisoner. Meanwhile it is up to the prosecuting body (CA or DA) as to whether they will prosecute.

          Meanwhile, you face all the requirements of meeting the elements of the offense, securing the rights of the accused, employed proper UoF, and complete documentation. Fail in any particular, and you are subject to serious criminal penalties. LE agencies receive a certain amount of leeway because of the duty to act, but a citizen has no such duty, and therefore if your actions are not absolutely textbook, you could be prison-bound.

          In addition, in many states officials may not be arrested except by certain agencies while in the fulfillment of their duties, in which case that answer is an emphatic No.
          Okay, I raised hell at a city counsel meeting and the the cops were confused as toward whether to obey my commands or the city counsel. (Myself as well.) But I just put on my DI voice and got them to comply.

          They're kinda squishy out here and when you apply gravel to your tone they tend to fold swiftly... Don't yell, growl instead.
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
            Okay, I raised hell at a city counsel meeting and the the cops were confused as toward whether to obey my commands or the city counsel. (Myself as well.) But I just put on my DI voice and got them to comply.

            They're kinda squishy out here and when you apply gravel to your tone they tend to fold swiftly... Don't yell, growl instead.
            Just remember that every time you pull a stunt like that, you are betting every material possession you own and possibly a stretch of your life.

            Every local and state agencies have built-in protections, whereas a private citizen has none.

            Like Russian Roulette, do not assume that because it worked out once that it will work out every time.

            Sovereign citizens have been learning the hard way and educating everyone on the pitfalls of this sort of thing.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I'm surprised that you openly admit to refusing to enforce Federal laws. That does not speak well for your state, since nothing in the Constitution, law or anything else authorizes a state to act in such a fashion.

              No LEO has any right whatsoever to decide what laws will and will not be enforced. The moment you do, take off your uniform and get out of town. You have just placed yourself completely out of bounds and no citizen has to listen to anything you say any longer.

              If you don't obey the laws, no one else has to either.
              Local and state agencies cannot enforce the Federal Code. Nor in many states can Federal agents enforce state law.

              Every LEO has every right to decide which statutes to take action on, and those they do not. The legal term is officer discretion. There is a variety of wriggle room between states, but not much. In Texas the only time you have to make a warrantless arrest involves protective orders. There are duties to act, duties to report, and so forth. But to make a warrant-less arrest? That is an officer's discretion. Dates back even before your time.

              Prosecutors decide what cases they will prosecute, which they will accept a plea, which they will decline to prosecute.

              Grand Juries decide which cases they will bill, and which they will no-bill.

              Judges decide which cases they will try, and which they dismiss.

              And so forth. The entire system is built upon people choosing what the circumstances warrant.

              The issue arises when agencies decide as a matter of policy that they will not enforce. That is an entirely different situation.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                Just remember that every time you pull a stunt like that, you are betting every material possession you own and possibly a stretch of your life.

                Every local and state agencies have built-in protections, whereas a private citizen has none.

                Like Russian Roulette, do not assume that because it worked out once that it will work out every time.

                Sovereign citizens have been learning the hard way and educating everyone on the pitfalls of this sort of thing.
                Oh they got their revenge. Caught me spraying lacquer without the appropriate spray booth. f***ers. I was building fine furniture. 120k fine. It was contained and under control.
                Last edited by Bwaha; 28 Jan 17, 03:19.
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                  Okay, I raised hell at a city counsel meeting and the the cops were confused as toward whether to obey my commands or the city counsel. (Myself as well.) But I just put on my DI voice and got them to comply.

                  .
                  Sure

                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                    Technically I don't enforce any federal laws either. I haven't been sworn by a federal judge as a federal officer.

                    I enforce my state laws and county ordinances.....typically the state has a law to match all the federal laws except interstate ones, some counterfeit stuff, and some regulatory compliance things. In those cases I just forward to the appropriate agency.
                    Exactly, and by refusing to follow the laws about illegals, you have made yourself part of the problem rather than part of the solution, and lost all respect in the process.

                    A LEO who cherry picks his laws has no value to society; rather, that person is a potential danger to all.

                    Imagine if we soldiers pulled a stunt like that.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      Local and state agencies cannot enforce the Federal Code. Nor in many states can Federal agents enforce state law.

                      Every LEO has every right to decide which statutes to take action on, and those they do not. The legal term is officer discretion. There is a variety of wriggle room between states, but not much. In Texas the only time you have to make a warrantless arrest involves protective orders. There are duties to act, duties to report, and so forth. But to make a warrant-less arrest? That is an officer's discretion. Dates back even before your time.

                      Prosecutors decide what cases they will prosecute, which they will accept a plea, which they will decline to prosecute.

                      Grand Juries decide which cases they will bill, and which they will no-bill.

                      Judges decide which cases they will try, and which they dismiss.

                      And so forth. The entire system is built upon people choosing what the circumstances warrant.

                      The issue arises when agencies decide as a matter of policy that they will not enforce. That is an entirely different situation.
                      BS. Those laws were passed for a reason and you know it...but let's allow our soldiers to decide what orders they will follow.

                      Can you define anarchy?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                        Question, can I bring charges against local and state officials as a private citizen?

                        Seems like I can because I got the city council to back down over Prop. 8 when I threatened them with arrest...
                        Depends on the offense, the state, and a few other things. Most states have some form of arrest or detention that citizens are authorized to do.

                        In NC, you can't make a citizen's arrest....principally because you cannot transport them legally or obtain a Magistrate's Order for On View Arrest. However, you can detain until the arrival of LE. And you can go to the Magistrate and obtain a Warrant at which time the LEO can then transport.

                        Now there are some exceptions. Felony offenses, well those are going to require an LEO (though as multilayered as LE is it's not hard to find an agency) to swear to the facts....or a DA to put it to Grand Jury. You also can't do Chapter 20 as a citizen (traffic law). And while you might technically can, I've never even heard of a Magistrate who has issued a warrant to a civilian against an LEO who was acting within the scope of their duties......so for practical purposes you can't threaten to lock up the cop who wrote you a ticket....though you can complain and really be a PITA to the IA folks until you get satisfaction.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Exactly, and by refusing to follow the laws about illegals, you have made yourself part of the problem rather than part of the solution, and lost all respect in the process.

                          A LEO who cherry picks his laws has no value to society; rather, that person is a potential danger to all.

                          Imagine if we soldiers pulled a stunt like that.
                          Well.....Soldiers ARE Federal employees. But Military Police doesn't enforce US Code....they enforce the UCMJ.

                          Until I get sworn as a Federal Officer, I am Legally UNABLE to enforce US Code.

                          I'm sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States and of NC. And to enforce the laws of the State of NC. Neither Constitution has any provisions that really require 'enforcement', aside from not violating them and acknowledging a duty to resist the violation of them.

                          So that leaves laws, or in my case US Code and the North Carolina General Statutes.

                          Like I said before, I'm not a Federal Law Enforcement Officer. I can be called to testify in Federal Court, but I cannot go before a Federal Magistrate and press charges, I can't go to a US Attorney and seek a Federal Indictment. I Cannot Legally Enforce the US Code.

                          Just as I am no longer in the Marine Corps, and cannot legally enforce any provisions of the UCMJ. Just like you're no longer in the US Army and cannot enforce any provisions of the UCMJ either.

                          I am, however, a certified and sworn LEO in NC. Therefore I enforce the NC General Statutes. Many of which are modeled to parallel US Code so that State LEOs can take action. But they still aren't federal laws.

                          To give an example. I bust you with a Sawed Off Shotgun. I'm going to arrest you for "Possession of a Weapon of Mass Destruction", which is the relevant NC General Statute. However, a sawed off shotgun is also a violation of Federal Law. An ATF agent could take notice of my arrest and obtain an indictment in Federal Court against you for the charge. At that time the DA would drop the State charges in favor of the US Attorney's Federal Charges. That's how the system works. If the USA or ATF agent didn't feel your case warrants Federal Attention, then it would go to trial in State court for the State charge.

                          The misconception that you have is that all LEOs are sworn to enforce ALL laws. They aren't. Some, like me, are limited in territorial jurisdiction (County Sheriff's Office) but not in scope (I can enforce all State Criminal and Civil Laws). Some are limited in scope (for instance Department of Insurance agents....they deal with insurance fraud and related matters and don't have the subject matter jurisdiction to work traffic law). Some are limited in both (company police and railroad police are two that come to mind). You have your Federal Agencies, which can enforce Federal Law but not the laws of the 50 separate states (hence why you've never been pulled for speeding by the FBI). And you have officers in 50 states who can enforce the individual laws of their state but not federal law and not the laws of the other 49 states (fugitive warrants are a bit more complicated but we'll save that for another day). And finally you have 'dual sworn' officers, such as members of the USMS Violent Fugitive Task Force, who can enforce both state and federal laws.

                          I hope this clears up this whole thing. You're really ranting about nothing. Unless you want all officers to be Federal cops, and all laws to be Federal laws....but then that's more like Britain.
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            BS. Those laws were passed for a reason and you know it...but let's allow our soldiers to decide what orders they will follow.

                            Can you define anarchy?
                            The same bodies that passed the laws approved officer discretion.

                            You probably missed the news because it got sorted out and codified about the time you were putting down the Moros in the Philippines, but that is the law of the land.

                            That is how the system works. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, as I noted in the last line of my post. You are confusing two wildly separate situations.

                            EDIT: Tac beat me to it.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                              Every LEO has every right to decide which statutes to take action on, and those they do not. The legal term is officer discretion. There is a variety of wriggle room between states, but not much. In Texas the only time you have to make a warrantless arrest involves protective orders. There are duties to act, duties to report, and so forth. But to make a warrant-less arrest? That is an officer's discretion. Dates back even before your time.

                              Precisely. In NC you are only required to make a warrantless arrest for Domestic Violence where there are visible signs, or protective orders. This isn't saying that we don't make a lot more On View arrests than that, only that we're not absolutely required to. And in a lot of cases, you opt to not make the on view, and go to the Magistrate for the Warrant first.....especially if the case is a bit odd or you have any doubts about your probable cause. Because it's not only embarrassing, it's potentially a civil liability for you to arrest someone without a warrant and then the magistrate does not find probable cause.

                              Not to mention the cases where you have an offence, say trespassing, but you recognize that the subject has dementia, so you use your discretion to NOT enforce that misdemeanor and instead get the elderly home.


                              Prosecutors decide what cases they will prosecute, which they will accept a plea, which they will decline to prosecute.

                              And more to the point, they will decide without the LEOs input most of the time. The sheer size of the court calendar dictates that most cases must be either dropped or plead. And if the defendant isn't willing to plead guilty as charged, then the prosecutor has to decide whether to drop it, offer a lesser offence, or be willing to take it to trial.....the latter almost never happens except for DWIs, Domestic Violence, and Felonies in my experience.

                              Grand Juries decide which cases they will bill, and which they will no-bill.

                              Yep. Though I will admit that the old adage about Grand Juries indicting a sandwich does have a grain of truth to it. You rarely get a Grand Jury that asks too many questions. But that's the way the cookie crumbles when you put 12 civilians in a room and tell them to decide if I have enough to go to trial........and none of those 12 have legal experience.

                              Judges decide which cases they will try, and which they dismiss.

                              And so forth. The entire system is built upon people choosing what the circumstances warrant.

                              The issue arises when agencies decide as a matter of policy that they will not enforce. That is an entirely different situation.
                              Agreed. This is the actual rub. Even a single officer refusing to enforce certain specific laws (for instance I've never written a seatbelt ticket, I have better things to do than go hunting for them) is an outlier and won't even statistically show. But an agency refusing to enforce certain laws wholesale because of the opinions of their political masters, that's a problem. Like when NC's Attorney General was telling DAs which charges to just drop wholesale because he didn't like the legislature or governor....that was a real problem.
                              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                                Agreed. This is the actual rub. Even a single officer refusing to enforce certain specific laws (for instance I've never written a seatbelt ticket, I have better things to do than go hunting for them) is an outlier and won't even statistically show. But an agency refusing to enforce certain laws wholesale because of the opinions of their political masters, that's a problem. Like when NC's Attorney General was telling DAs which charges to just drop wholesale because he didn't like the legislature or governor....that was a real problem.
                                Very true.

                                No seatbelt, ever?

                                Here we have click it or ticket programs.

                                But being municipal we tend to write a lot more traffic. Back in my street days it was the way you kept heat on the maggots and got to at least eyeball their car interiors.

                                When I was a street supervisor my rule was that after 10pm and before 4:30 AM if it moved on a residential street, it got stopped. The car burglars had to move their loot, after all.

                                One stop I made in the wee hours, I pulled a guy over for no light on his LP. I make contact, and there is a cash register without a drawer in his back seat.

                                So I ask, "What is that in your back seat?'

                                He didn't even blink. "A TV."

                                Thank you for the PC, moron.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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