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  • #46
    According to Fox's front page, Trump's campaign is complaining about the moderation (as predicted).

    More interesting is the two front page Fox articles claiming Hillary was the winner.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...-prepared.html
    Well, they were both themselves. And Hillary Clinton was the winner.

    It wasnít always clear that this would be the case as things began well for Donald Trump on Monday night at Hofstra.

    The first third of the first presidential debate of 2016 was as close to a dream for the Trump campaign as they could have envisioned.

    The Republican nominee was focused on the key themes of his campaign: his outsider status, strong business record and why we canít trust someone who has been in politics for 30 years and not solved any of our nationís problems. He spoke passionately about protecting American interests from perilous trade deals, a message that has been resonating with voters across the aisle. And he didnít lose his cool Ė at least at the beginning.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...-stumbles.html
    Winner? If we must, round one . . . goes to Clinton Ė my scorecard had her ahead on points, with no knockdowns, so no lasting damage to Trump.

    Clinton was more composed on the stage and showed more command of the facts. She didnít cough (the medical story coming out of Hofstra: a sniffing Trump could have used a Neti Pot).

    In all, Clinton was more agile than Trump. However, she did nothing to address the elephant in the room Ė the publicís lack of confidence in her honesty. She might want to rethink the attack-heavy approach before their next meeting.

    Trump struggled on two matters: birtherism and his tax returns. He kept his focus on a failed political system and effectively tagged Clinton on trade and political convenience Ė all the while reminding voters that Clintonís been a political presence for three decades now.

    So even the pro-Trump MSM isn't backing claims of a Trump victory tonight. Once this digests - and we start getting lots of play out of those sound bites - we will see how (if) this changes any figures.

    Comment


    • #47
      Well, on the flip side the MSM, as expected in what was really a draw, is declaring Hillary the winner.

      I don't think either of them "won."

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        What I saw was Clinton held her ground for the most part. I really think her continued smiling and almost laughing at Trump was a mistake. Sure, her supporters ate that up, but it comes across as arrogant and petty to those less convinced about her electability.

        On the economy, Hillary got hammered.

        The tax return issue, she should have let it go. Trump's I'll release my tax returns if you release your 33,000 e-mails was a major slam.

        On race and race relations neither scored any major points. It was a rehash.

        I think Hillary made a mistake calling Trump a racist over the birther issue. Trump may be a loon on this but I doubt he was being racist about it. This was a lose for both candidates, and Hillary lost by going low. She could have had the high ground on this issue.

        On cybersecurity Hillary danced carefully around the subject. You could tell she was avoiding the obvious: Her e-mail server.
        She was handed a draw when Trump didn't bring that up on this subject.

        At 1 hr 35 minutes, Hillary went vicious personal attacking Trump on women. I don't think it bought her anything.

        On the whole, a draw.
        What is shocking is that Hillary looked like she said more about her emails than Trump did - he had a golden ticket to dig that knife in, and instead rambled about his son, China, and "cyber" while she apologized and tried to seem like less of a robot.

        Hillary was bland and predictable, if a bit more aggressive than one might have expected. Trump was a mess. His supporters will eat it up, but is there a single question he answered a) on time and b) in a coherent manner?

        If these had been students present reports to the class, Clinton would have earned a mid- to low-B, while Trump would have been sent to the Vice Principals office for refusing to follow directions.

        Still, we can't ignore his ability to draw Hillary in applause - and scoring the first round for himself as well - which shows his popularity is still there. But if one counts missed opportunities... damn. Just damn.

        Trump had three golden opportunities where he dropped the ball, and those are marks I hold against him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Well, on the flip side the MSM, as expected in what was really a draw, is declaring Hillary the winner.

          I don't think either of them "won."
          Again, I'm forcing you to pick a winner. No fence sitting and waffling here. Like a boring boxing match, you can still call a winner even if both men are upright at the end. Unless you think it was a literal 50-50, I expect you to be able to justify why one candidate did even slightly better.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
            According to Fox's front page, Trump's campaign is complaining about the moderation (as predicted).

            More interesting is the two front page Fox articles claiming Hillary was the winner.

            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...-prepared.html
            Well, they were both themselves. And Hillary Clinton was the winner.

            It wasnít always clear that this would be the case as things began well for Donald Trump on Monday night at Hofstra.

            The first third of the first presidential debate of 2016 was as close to a dream for the Trump campaign as they could have envisioned.

            The Republican nominee was focused on the key themes of his campaign: his outsider status, strong business record and why we canít trust someone who has been in politics for 30 years and not solved any of our nationís problems. He spoke passionately about protecting American interests from perilous trade deals, a message that has been resonating with voters across the aisle. And he didnít lose his cool Ė at least at the beginning.

            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...-stumbles.html
            Winner? If we must, round one . . . goes to Clinton Ė my scorecard had her ahead on points, with no knockdowns, so no lasting damage to Trump.

            Clinton was more composed on the stage and showed more command of the facts. She didnít cough (the medical story coming out of Hofstra: a sniffing Trump could have used a Neti Pot).

            In all, Clinton was more agile than Trump. However, she did nothing to address the elephant in the room Ė the publicís lack of confidence in her honesty. She might want to rethink the attack-heavy approach before their next meeting.

            Trump struggled on two matters: birtherism and his tax returns. He kept his focus on a failed political system and effectively tagged Clinton on trade and political convenience Ė all the while reminding voters that Clintonís been a political presence for three decades now.

            So even the pro-Trump MSM isn't backing claims of a Trump victory tonight. Once this digests - and we start getting lots of play out of those sound bites - we will see how (if) this changes any figures.
            Hillary won the first debate (it helps to be prepared)
            Douglas Schoen
            By Douglas E. Schoen...

            Douglas Schoen is a good guy... but he worked for the Clintons before joining Fox News.
            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

            Comment


            • #51
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2dJEBTY5D0

              All of us are going to get it. (Except us ruralites..)
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

              Comment


              • #52
                What will be interesting is if we quantify just how many fact checked errors were made by each side - and if anyone will then admit that their "guy" was the bigger liar.

                I don't hold my breath, though.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                  What will be interesting is if we quantify just how many fact checked errors were made by each side - and if anyone will then admit that their "guy" was the bigger liar.

                  I don't hold my breath, though.
                  Fact checked by who?
                  Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    Hillary won the first debate (it helps to be prepared)
                    Douglas Schoen
                    By Douglas E. Schoen...

                    Douglas Schoen is a good guy... but he worked for the Clintons before joining Fox News.
                    He was also the lead strategic advisor for Bloomberg before joining Fox.

                    He also worked for Fox News after leaving the Clintons.

                    So since he's been employed by liberals, conservatives, and independents, how is that manipulating your interpretation of his article?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                      Fact checked by who?
                      Lizard people, of course.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                        He was also the lead strategic advisor for Bloomberg before joining Fox.

                        He also worked for Fox News after leaving the Clintons.

                        So since he's been employed by liberals, conservatives, and independents, how is that manipulating your interpretation of his article?
                        It's just a data point. The second article you posted was far more equivocal.

                        PPP, a Democrat-leaning pollster, found the outcome closer than CNN...

                        http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...bate-5140.html
                        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          It's just a data point. The second article you posted was far more equivocal.

                          PPP, a Democrat-leaning pollster, found the outcome closer than CNN...

                          http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...bate-5140.html
                          I posted the PPP figures earlier in the thread.

                          Do we have a data point for Doug's hair style as well? I'm picturing pompadour.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            It's odd that the candidate who makes much of his success in the commercial world is unable to produce his tax records when called upon.
                            To try to deflect the charge by referring to Clinton's missing Emails only emphasised the poverty of both sides' records.

                            An interesting debate ,nevertheless.
                            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                            Samuel Johnson.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                              It's odd that the candidate who makes much of his success in the commercial world is unable to produce his tax records when called upon.
                              To try to deflect the charge by referring to Clinton's missing Emails only emphasised the poverty of both sides arguments.
                              Oh he said he would - as part of an exchange with Hillary and her emails.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                I posted the PPP figures earlier in the thread.

                                Do we have a data point for Doug's hair style as well? I'm picturing pompadour.
                                Doug's kind of baldish, like me & Dick Cheney.
                                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                                Comment

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