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  • #76
    Israel is successful because of the hand-outs granted to them and would cease to exist if it wasn't for the US and UK. Is that what passes as success from embracing western values? Successfully manipulating western governments and societies may be more accurate.
    Last edited by TactiKill J.; 08 Aug 16, 10:57.
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
      Israel is successful because of the hand-outs granted to them and would cease to exist if it wasn't for the US and UK. Is that what passes as success from embracing western values? Successfully manipulating western governments and societies may be more accurate.
      Almost all of the US aid to Israel is for defense. You could argue that it is cheaper than the alternative of US bases in the area. That however is a topic for military experts.

      What constitutes a successful society? If we look at just one standard, infant mortality, in Israel it is 3.55 and in Egypt it is 20.55 per 1000 live births. We could use many other physical measures but the results would be more or less the same. What is more important however is personal freedom and civil rights were Israel also ranks higher than it's neighbors.

      Israel is not a perfect nation but it was born out of the gross imperfection of anti Semitic persecution. It's not so much that we owe Israel special consideration because of past discrimination but that we should avoid oppression Olympics. We need to measure people in terms of how likely they are to propagate the values we hold sacred. We do that in the light of the special challenges they face. In the case of Israel one of it's greatest challenges may be overcoming the paranoia that comes from being without friends and the history of Jewish persecution.
      We hunt the hunters

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      • #78
        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        Almost all of the US aid to Israel is for defense. You could argue that it is cheaper than the alternative of US bases in the area. That however is a topic for military experts.

        What constitutes a successful society? If we look at just one standard, infant mortality, in Israel it is 3.55 and in Egypt it is 20.55 per 1000 live births. We could use many other physical measures but the results would be more or less the same. What is more important however is personal freedom and civil rights were Israel also ranks higher than it's neighbors.

        Israel is not a perfect nation but it was born out of the gross imperfection of anti Semitic persecution. It's not so much that we owe Israel special consideration because of past discrimination but that we should avoid oppression Olympics. We need to measure people in terms of how likely they are to propagate the values we hold sacred. We do that in the light of the special challenges they face. In the case of Israel one of it's greatest challenges may be overcoming the paranoia that comes from being without friends and the history of Jewish persecution.
        During the Zionist immigration (pre-WWII) and Israel's early years of existence, the USA was very consistant on a neutral stance towards that nation. When it's hostile(Arab~Muslim) neighbors sought to re-arm in the late 950's onward, and turned towards the USSR for weapons and training, that's when Cold War Real-Politics had the USA turn towards Israel as one of the only "friends", along with Iran then, we had in the Middle East. Our "bond" with Israel is somewhat due to a Cold War legacy, though there are other reasons with the rise of Islamic Extremism/Jihad.

        If one looks to the land prior to 1948, it was a largely agricultural and industrial nothing, other than the few Jewish enclaves. So what it is today is credit mostly to the Jewish resettlement of their ancestral homeland.

        The source of conflict for Israel derives from the Islamic concept of the World divided in two spheres/realms, one the Dur al-Islam where Islamic religion, culture and Sharia law dominate and the Dur-al-Harran the world of War/infidels. Israel removed land that had been part of the Islamic world and Sharia for nearly 1300 years and placed it back into the Dur al-Harran. Israel could have been a Hindu, or Shinto, or Buddhist state (anything other than Islamic) and it would still be on the Islamic target list for reclaiming and returning to the Islamic World/fold. Islamic scripture and dogma consider any land/region that was once Islamic to always be such and subject to return if removed. Portions of Southern and Eastern Europe are also targeted for return, but lower down in priority.
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

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        • #79
          Could it be that our bond with Israel has more to do with the influence of the US large Jewish population than with the Cold War?
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            Could it be that our bond with Israel has more to do with the influence of the US large Jewish population than with the Cold War?
            The Jewish/Israeli lobby certainly does play a part, but the risk in discussing it is that people tend to overstate their influence, which makes it a very tricky issue - the concept of blaming Jews for having undue influence over government policy brings up dark things, and is one of the staples of far-right propaganda.

            The more prosaic cousin is, as you point out, the simple fact that with such a large Jewish population, the American people and their politicians are more aware of and concerned about their shared interests (or cynically, that supporting Israel will attract Jewish voters).

            However, it does go back further: LBJ was one of the key proponents of stronger ties with Israel when, previously, the US was seen as a more neutral party (with a good relationship with Israel and Egypt).

            And then one also has to look at the general turn of the Arab states towards the Soviet axis, leaving the US to find friends in the region where it could. Israel, which had always been fairly aloof regarding American allies (couldn't really count on them), and which had decent relations with the USSR, was still not pro-Soviet - especially since the Soviets were major backers and arms-suppliers to the nations attacking Israel time and again.

            The Cold War, along with demographics and political realities, are dominant influences in historic US-Israeli ties.

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