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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post


    They were the primary authors of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. This has nothing to do with opinions of their presidencies.
    Madison was not the only author of the Constitution, although the Bill of Rights is Madison's. And as you were not specific about which role you were referring to with Jefferson and Madison, my reply was not a strawman argument. And it should be noted that Jefferson was not a supporter of the Constitution and was also not part of the Constitutional Convention as he was in France at the time.
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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    • #17
      Everyone is confusing an election with a primary. Not the same. Political Parties are PRIVATE groups that can do as they wish. Even now the conservative wing of the GOP is trying to make 2020 a series of primaries where only registered Republicans can vote. If state laws prevent that they will suggest forgoing a primary and having a Caucus or convention instead. Which is how it should be. I'm tired of tax money money paying too select a political parties candidate. It should be ALL private.
      “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
      “To talk of many things:
      Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
      Of cabbages—and kings—
      And why the sea is boiling hot—
      And whether pigs have wings.”
      ― Lewis Carroll

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
        Yep.

        Democracy dies from self-inflicted wounds as soon as a majority figures out that it can vote for whatever it wants. Mental green****ation is largely the result of scientifically illiterate voters thinking that the laws of thermodynamics can be amended by popular vote.
        And seeing that this is exactly what people claim is happening now, the idea that republics are somehow the superior representative system seems flawed, making it an argument from ideological faith than actual fact.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
          Everyone is confusing an election with a primary. Not the same. Political Parties are PRIVATE groups that can do as they wish. Even now the conservative wing of the GOP is trying to make 2020 a series of primaries where only registered Republicans can vote. If state laws prevent that they will suggest forgoing a primary and having a Caucus or convention instead. Which is how it should be. I'm tired of tax money money paying too select a political parties candidate. It should be ALL private.
          In my state the State Election Board counts the votes, not the two main parties. That's the Law anyway, provided the counters are ethical. The ballots out to voters soon, and then tallied in early Aug.
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
            And seeing that this is exactly what people claim is happening now, the idea that republics are somehow the superior representative system seems flawed, making it an argument from ideological faith than actual fact.
            Republics depend upon informed and involved citizens. History shows such are usually in short supply. Hence oligarchies of some form tend to dominate through out historical record. Doesn't mean they are best, just most likely and in some ways easiest, since track record would suggest the majority of humanity, anywhere and anytime, tend to be "sheeple".

            Even on this forum we see proof in that a majority of posters, when discussing politics and/or politicians show such levels of dismissive attitudes and ignorance as to demonstrate they are neither informed nor involved in the political process beyond the bare minimum of paying taxes(maybe) and occasionally voting(maybe).

            The American Republic is failing because the American Citizens are failing in their duty as citizens.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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            • #21
              Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              Republics depend upon informed and involved citizens. History shows such are usually in short supply. Hence oligarchies of some form tend to dominate through out historical record. Doesn't mean they are best, just most likely and in some ways easiest, since track record would suggest the majority of humanity, anywhere and anytime, tend to be "sheeple".
              I've never been sold on the idea of a Republic being inherently superior to a Democracy - though this is less specific to the United States and more general political theory.

              From where I sit, Republicanism is just Democracy by proxy: you elect representatives who then vote in your stead. They operate on inherently the same principle, just with a middle-man in between the voter and the decision.

              Just about every argument made for Republics over Democracies I've seen tends to depend upon using facets of an ideal Republic which can be applied just as equally to an ideal Democracy, such as rule of law, checks and balances, and an educated and civic-minded citizenry.

              About the only argument in favor of Republics over Democracies where Democracies are excluded is the Oligarchy/Technocracy concept: that the elected Oligarchs/Technocrats are better suited to vote in their nations interests because they are better educated, more well informed, and just more fitting to be placed into positions of power over the less educated and less informed population.

              The people are ennobled as the citizen and the voter which is supposed to guide their nation along... yet they're also to be mistrusted and kept at arm's length because they can't govern on their own, either. It's a strange scenario for sure.

              Even on this forum we see proof in that a majority of posters, when discussing politics and/or politicians show such levels of dismissive attitudes and ignorance as to demonstrate they are neither informed nor involved in the political process beyond the bare minimum of paying taxes(maybe) and occasionally voting(maybe).

              The American Republic is failing because the American Citizens are failing in their duty as citizens.
              I agree, but then one also has to admit that the voters are getting exactly who they want, since they keep voting for the same parties and the same politicians time and time again.

              When satisfaction and trust in Congress is at record lows, yet we still see such incredibly high re-election results, it seems clear there is a disconnect between what people are saying and how they're voting.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                When satisfaction and trust in Congress is at record lows, yet we still see such incredibly high re-election results, it seems clear there is a disconnect between what people are saying and how they're voting.
                Or there's massive election fraud. That's what I believe.
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                  Or there's massive election fraud. That's what I believe.
                  My only issue there is that I don't believe in conspiracy theories on that scale.

                  To commit such fraud over such a long period of time would require hundreds of thousands of people, all of whom would have to keep silent over the decades, with even the opposition parties in tightly controlled states not spilling the beans on their opponents.

                  I mean, don't you think at least one guy with irrefutable proof of this would have gotten disgruntled and released that bombshell?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                    Or there's massive election fraud. That's what I believe.
                    While I can't speak for Caliban, I strongly suspect that Congress' low rating are a combination of two things: media hype (after all, Bobo is their boy, and Congress has blocked him more often than not), and the fact that voters like their rep and senator, and don't really care about the rest.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                      My only issue there is that I don't believe in conspiracy theories on that scale.

                      To commit such fraud over such a long period of time would require hundreds of thousands of people, all of whom would have to keep silent over the decades, with even the opposition parties in tightly controlled states not spilling the beans on their opponents.

                      I mean, don't you think at least one guy with irrefutable proof of this would have gotten disgruntled and released that bombshell?
                      Maybe not that difficult. Several years ago we had an election for governor where the GOP candidate won the vote in the largest population and swing county of our state and also state wide, but the difference was so slim as to require a recount in that county. Despite finding "misplaced boxes of ballots not counted", the largely Democrat leaning employees of the election office of that county couldn't get a clear enough edge to call the election for the Democrat candidate. Had to do another "recount" and "find another box of overlooked ballots" to finally get the math right enough to allow the Democrat candidate to win.

                      But hey, no conspiracy or case of ballot counting fraud.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        Maybe not that difficult. Several years ago we had an election for governor where the GOP candidate won the vote in the largest population and swing county of our state and also state wide, but the difference was so slim as to require a recount in that county. Despite finding "misplaced boxes of ballots not counted", the largely Democrat leaning employees of the election office of that county couldn't get a clear enough edge to call the election for the Democrat candidate. Had to do another "recount" and "find another box of overlooked ballots" to finally get the math right enough to allow the Democrat candidate to win.

                        But hey, no conspiracy or case of ballot counting fraud.
                        I'm not saying that fraud doesn't happen, only that from our examples we've seen it is mostly conducted at the local or municipal level and there isn't any convincing evidence for a nation-wide conspiracy to disenfranchise voters.

                        One thing we must remember is that the two major parties do have a vested interest in exposing the fraud of the other side - so if the GOP had evidence that the Democrats were stealing whole states, and had been for decades, they'd be all over that and would never stop.

                        The fact that Fox News isn't awash with major stories about election fraud each year is sorta indicative of the whole theory. And you can be sure that MSNBC would be shrieking all year if they caught the GOP disenfranchising hundreds of thousands.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                          In my state the State Election Board counts the votes, not the two main parties. That's the Law anyway, provided the counters are ethical. The ballots out to voters soon, and then tallied in early Aug.
                          Why is your state involved in the internal race of a private group, a political party, to select it's candidate for office? Why did your state spend taxpayer money to provide this service for two private groups?
                          “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                          “To talk of many things:
                          Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                          Of cabbages—and kings—
                          And why the sea is boiling hot—
                          And whether pigs have wings.”
                          ― Lewis Carroll

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                            Why is your state involved in the internal race of a private group, a political party, to select it's candidate for office? Why did your state spend taxpayer money to provide this service for two private groups?
                            Not what I want or like to see. IIRC. it was an initiative/proposition the voters approved, so we have a state wide primary vote in early Aug. Both major parties still do their county and state conventions for the nationals as well. Also, IIRC, this vote determines whom will be on the ballot in Nov.
                            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                            • #29
                              Guys read the article in the op. The whole thing then decide. It just might change your mind...
                              Credo quia absurdum.


                              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                              • #30
                                As a Californian all I can say is, Kalifornia Uber Alles!!!

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