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  • Do you support tariffs?

    Trump breaks with party on trade as he threatens tariffs

    MONESSEN, Pa. (AP) ó Republican Donald Trump vowed to tear up the nation's trade deals, threatened new tariffs and called for a new era of economic "Americanism" in a speech that underscored just how far removed he is from typical GOP orthodoxy.

    The speech, delivered on a factory floor in western Pennsylvania on Tuesday, outlined Trump's promise to restore millions of lost factory jobs by backing away from decades of U.S. trade policy. The approach, which represents a significant break from years of Republican Party advocacy for unencumbered trade between nations, drew immediate condemnation from Democrats as well as GOP business leaders, who questioned the impact on the price of consumer goods, as well as the country's place in the global economy

    In his 35-minute speech, Trump directly targeted Democratic presidential rival Hillary Clinton, blaming her and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, for the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs. And he threatened to exit the more than 2-decade-old North American Free Trade Agreement and vowed to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, an agreement among 12 Pacific Rim nations that has yet to take effect.

    "This wave of globalization has wiped out totally, totally our middle class," Trump said, standing in front of pallets of recycled aluminum cans on a factory floor. "It doesn't have to be this way. We can turn it around, and we can turn it around fast."
    AP - Full Article

    So Trump seems to be breaking from free-market capitalism to support protectionism (no surprise there), but I find the talk about tariffs interesting.

    Historically, the question about tariffs in America has produced some pretty extreme reactions from the American public, even being said to have contributed to the Civil War. So I thought I'd start a discussion with a few questions:

    Do you support tariffs?

    Do you support the US withdrawing from those free trade agreements?

    Do you believe tariffs will help quickly restore manufacturing jobs and/or the middle class to the US?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    AP - Full Article

    So Trump seems to be breaking from free-market capitalism to support protectionism (no surprise there), but I find the talk about tariffs interesting.

    Historically, the question about tariffs in America has produced some pretty extreme reactions from the American public, even being said to have contributed to the Civil War. So I thought I'd start a discussion with a few questions:

    Do you support tariffs?

    Do you support the US withdrawing from those free trade agreements?

    Do you believe tariffs will help quickly restore manufacturing jobs and/or the middle class to the US?
    Do you support tariffs?

    Yes. They are in the Constitution. It was the way the framers thought our government would generate its operating revenue.

    Do you support the US withdrawing from those free trade agreements?

    It depends. Free trade with Communist and other heavily socialistic nations is not possible.

    Do you believe tariffs will help quickly restore manufacturing jobs and/or the middle class to the US?


    No. But they will at least give the impression that the President is an American first and then a World-ican.
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      Do you support tariffs? Yes. They are in the Constitution. It was the way the framers thought our government would generate its operating revenue.

      Do you support the US withdrawing from those free trade agreements? It depends.

      Do you believe tariffs will help quickly restore manufacturing jobs and/or the middle class to the US?
      No. But they will at least give the impression that the President is an American first and then a World-ican.
      Solid selling points to the working class.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
        Do you support tariffs?

        Yes. They are in the Constitution. It was the way the framers thought our government would generate its operating revenue.
        The question then becomes if the government would then be willing to actually lower taxes to offset what it gains in tariffs, since tariffs would almost certainly result in higher prices for many goods and thus take more money out of my pocket.

        Me being a terrifying cynic, I don't see the government under any president being willing or able to give up on significant revenue streams that support more programs meant to buy votes.

        Comment


        • #5
          U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section. 8.
          The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

          Duties and imposts are tariffs...
          What is a tariff?

          A tariff or duty (the words are used interchangeably) is a tax levied by governments on the value including freight and insurance of imported products. Different tariffs are applied on different products by different countries.

          http://www.export.gov/logistics/eg_main_018130.asp
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
            U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section. 8.
            The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

            Duties and imposts are tariffs...
            What is a tariff?

            A tariff or duty (the words are used interchangeably) is a tax levied by governments on the value including freight and insurance of imported products. Different tariffs are applied on different products by different countries.

            http://www.export.gov/logistics/eg_main_018130.asp
            Having congress declare war is constitutional; I wouldn't support congress declaring war on Canada.

            Though those maple-suckers probably deserve it...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
              The question then becomes if the government would then be willing to actually lower taxes to offset what it gains in tariffs, since tariffs would almost certainly result in higher prices for many goods and thus take more money out of my pocket.

              Me being a terrifying cynic, I don't see the government under any president being willing or able to give up on significant revenue streams that support more programs meant to buy votes.
              Trump and the Republicans would be happy to lower income taxes.

              Hillary and the Democrats would not.

              Tariffs have to be logically imposed. The purpose should be to effectively raise revenue; not shut down trade. Trump has generally said that he would use the threat of high tariffs to extract better trade deals...
              The idea behind imposing tariffs is to make American companies more competitive with their foreign counterparts. As those companies prosper, the thinking goes, they can hire more workers and pay their employees better. Those workers, in turn, would have more money to spend, and that helps spread those dollars around the economy more broadly.

              Dean Baker, an economist with the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research, said the risks of tariffs are sometimes overplayed.

              He suggested that if the United States could reduce the nationís trade deficit by either half a percentage point or one percentage point of gross domestic product, it could help create 500,000 to 1 million new manufacturing jobs. (Currently, the trade deficit is a little under 3 percent of domestic product.) An employment gain of that size "doesnít look too bad," Baker said.

              Meanwhile, even a free-marketer like Dan Mitchell of the Cato Institute said that Trumpís course could have a happy ending if he managed to win concessions from some of its foreign trading partners by threatening -- but not actually imposing -- tariffs.

              "Trump has at times said the purpose of talking about tariffs is to compel other nations to lower trade barriers, so I suppose thereís some small possibility that we might get a good outcome," Mitchell said.

              [...]

              http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...what-could-im/
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                Having congress declare war is constitutional; I wouldn't support congress declaring war on Canada.

                Though those maple-suckers probably deserve it...
                What if they deserved it?

                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                  Trump and the Republicans would be happy to lower income taxes.

                  Hillary and the Democrats would not.

                  Tariffs have to be logically imposed. The purpose should be to effectively raise revenue; not shut down trade. Trump has generally said that he would use the threat of high tariffs to extract better trade deals...
                  The idea behind imposing tariffs is to make American companies more competitive with their foreign counterparts. As those companies prosper, the thinking goes, they can hire more workers and pay their employees better. Those workers, in turn, would have more money to spend, and that helps spread those dollars around the economy more broadly.

                  Dean Baker, an economist with the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research, said the risks of tariffs are sometimes overplayed.

                  He suggested that if the United States could reduce the nationís trade deficit by either half a percentage point or one percentage point of gross domestic product, it could help create 500,000 to 1 million new manufacturing jobs. (Currently, the trade deficit is a little under 3 percent of domestic product.) An employment gain of that size "doesnít look too bad," Baker said.

                  Meanwhile, even a free-marketer like Dan Mitchell of the Cato Institute said that Trumpís course could have a happy ending if he managed to win concessions from some of its foreign trading partners by threatening -- but not actually imposing -- tariffs.

                  "Trump has at times said the purpose of talking about tariffs is to compel other nations to lower trade barriers, so I suppose thereís some small possibility that we might get a good outcome," Mitchell said.

                  [...]

                  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...what-could-im/
                  Trump is a wonderful case study in political schizophrenia - at times he demonstrates a grasp of Realpolitik by knowing you can swing your national schnitzengruben around to convince and force others to concede to your demands. Other times he seems incredibly inept and prone to believing his own farts don't stink when he drops some "policy" on us all.

                  It's why this coming election is set to be one of the most thrilling ones in ages... and who doesn't look forward to what he'll throw in Hillary's face.

                  That being said, I'm a pretty devoted capitalist and a strong supporter of open markets. I prefer being able to buy what I want at the market price with a minimal amount of government intrusion as possible, so the idea of tariffs always raise my hackles and put me on edge.

                  Conservatives have traditionally presented themselves as being the party in favor of less government interference in the economy. Having the leading Republican talk about the very real possibility of using tariffs so openly sorta sours that impression.

                  Is modern American conservatism echoing the protectionist, isolationist views of the post-Great War period?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In certain cases where other nations do not allow equal trading rights, definitely.
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No, never under any circumstances.
                      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        In certain cases where other nations do not allow equal trading rights, definitely.
                        I support fair trade, not free trade. Free trade as a national policy is pie in the sky stupid.

                        Simply put, if the UK does not levy tariffs or undue "inspection " and other fees upon products we import to them, and doesn't engage in specific practice designed to make our companies especially uncompetitive, then the US doesn't do any of that either and trade is free across the board between them.

                        Otoh, if say Italy for instance imposed a 10 percent tariff, required special and expensive beyond customary inspection of products.....then the US should impose equal hardship upon imports from that country.

                        When trade is free, it is best. However, one sided free trade is ruinous. Therefore duties should be used appropriately to ensure that your national interests are supported, and other nations are discouraged from engaging in protectionist trade practice.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                          AP - Full Article

                          So Trump seems to be breaking from free-market capitalism to support protectionism (no surprise there), but I find the talk about tariffs interesting.

                          Historically, the question about tariffs in America has produced some pretty extreme reactions from the American public, even being said to have contributed to the Civil War. So I thought I'd start a discussion with a few questions:

                          Do you support tariffs?

                          Do you support the US withdrawing from those free trade agreements?

                          Do you believe tariffs will help quickly restore manufacturing jobs and/or the middle class to the US?
                          1) Yes, the US Constitution says that the Federal government has a right to levy tariffs.
                          2) No but I do support some level of renegotiation. On the balance though I think free trade is good as it helps keep the costs of things down. More people can buy material goods and that drives the economy.
                          3) No, large scale manufacturing (ie: pre 1960s) is never coming back to the US unless we are willing to work 7 days a week for 10 cents an hour and no benefits. There will always be somewhere cheaper for manufacturing.

                          The real problem here is NOT free trade, it's AUTOMATION.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't like the way our jobs got sucked out of the country when we went "free trade" with Canada and Mexico. I don't think we will ever get the jobs back and the trained workers are now gone. I think certain industries, like computer chips and parts should be made in the US. Taiwanese and Chinese parts are cheap, but puts us beholden to these countries for security measures. The US once shipped guidance systems to the USSR for their ICBMs!

                            There should be tariffs and duties om certain imports. I don't see them affecting American wages as the Corporations would still want to keep wages low and increase profits.

                            I had just got out of the Army and my in-laws had a store in North Lake Charles. Someone had come through from Missouri and sold them a bunch of shoes. My Father in Law decided to drive up there and talk to some shoe factories about selling their product. He also wanted to stop in Arkansas on the way back and buy a Squirrel Dog or two! I rode up there with him. We drove up through Monroe, LA and through East Arkansas to Missouri. We almost got to St Louis before we turned West and headed for Jefferson City. It seemed like every shoe factory we wanted to stop at had shut down!

                            We drove home through Central Arkansas but we stopped right over the border and went to the local dog pound. The dog catcher had a genuine Squirrel Dog. I thought it was a German Shepard! We drove back with the dog in the trunk! The dog did find Squirrels but you had to run to keep up with it. It died of heart worms within a year. I had thought FIL had a couple kennel addresses to stop at, but silly me, that would have been expensive! The Mother in Law was really impressed with the state of the trunk when we got back! Today if you want a good Arkansas Squirrel Dog, do a Google Search and get some addresses before you drive to Arkansas!

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                              I support fair trade, not free trade. Free trade as a national policy is pie in the sky stupid.

                              Simply put, if the UK does not levy tariffs or undue "inspection " and other fees upon products we import to them, and doesn't engage in specific practice designed to make our companies especially uncompetitive, then the US doesn't do any of that either and trade is free across the board between them.

                              Otoh, if say Italy for instance imposed a 10 percent tariff, required special and expensive beyond customary inspection of products.....then the US should impose equal hardship upon imports from that country.

                              When trade is free, it is best. However, one sided free trade is ruinous. Therefore duties should be used appropriately to ensure that your national interests are supported, and other nations are discouraged from engaging in protectionist trade practice.
                              I was thinking more of nations like Japan, that block the importation of American vehicles, meat and other products while expecting free access to American markets.

                              And OPEC nations, who conspire annually to fix the price of oil.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                              Comment

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