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  • #31
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    That ain't nowhere near good enough. You know it, I know it, and so must a hell of a lot of other people.
    It takes years to grow a good Cop, criminals spring up like weeds.
    One is six is actually damn good, vastly better than what I saw in service. However, you guys need to have a ten to one kill ratio and if the criminals are that good you need to be a lot better.
    We do not agree here. While I am a shooting enthusiast, I do not expect my officers to shoot expert. Unlike Hollywood, we don't get in firefights every week.

    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    A paycheck, thats all there is to it, eh?
    I was expecting something more would be involved, especially from a Branch of the Govt that has the power that the Military does not have; the ability to walk up and get in the face of any US citizen and start giving them orders... and shoot them if they don't comply.
    Firstly, we are not a branch of the government, and secondly we don't have that authority. So your expectations were wildly off base.

    Now you know.


    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    You keep resorting to that kind of insulting B.S. when you get cornered, so I know for sure I hit a sore spot there.
    Not really. Its a line I trot out whenever I get some hero who expects far more than he or she is capable or willing to commit. I would never say it, for example, to Trung Si or Jeffdoorgunner, to name two, because they have established their bona fides. But when people who have never had to put their life on the line start sounding like Field Marshall Haig ordering yet another attack against the trenches, I like to make that suggestion. Don't tell us, show us. Strangely, no one takes us up on it.

    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    I hit a personal milestone the other day. A couple of weeks ago I took my pistol to the range and put six rounds into an 8 x 11 target at a range of 8 yards.
    Time from the first shot to the last; just under 2 seconds.
    Not bad. That would make you average at that station in our qualification. To shoot better than average you would have to put 10 rounds into an area the size of a playing card, with a combat reload, in 4 seconds.

    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    Now, if an over-the-hill character like me can pick up a skill like that, anyone that is serious about it can do the same.
    I just wish more of them would.
    That is, as I noted, shooting minimum for my agency. Hitting an 8x11 kill zone is only acceptable for us at 25 yards. If you are on the tactical team, you run 25 yards to the firing line in full gear before you start shooting, and you have to score a minimum of 90%.

    So what you have is not what we would consider serious. More akin to average.

    Certainly not what I would send into an active shooter situation.

    Here's the point you need to understand: punching holes in paper isn't proof of anything. It takes a certain something to go into a building to hunt an armed man, and most police officers do not have it. No matter how well they are trained, they should not be sent into that sort of situation.

    Again, we are not the infantry. Most officers are older, married, and have children. They have responsibilities too serious to be engaging in acts of vainglory.

    That is why tactical teams are so critical: when properly formed, they will draw in those who have the spark that lets them do stupid stuff like go into a building to hunt an active shooter. You train them heavily, use them as often as you can to build up the team, and hopefully when the big game arrives, they will see it through.

    The police in the USA investigate crimes and keep the peace. We are not shock troops to be used against terrorists.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
      Nope the real lessen it that the government can't protect you in this type of situation and that you need to be proactive and be prepared.
      That has always been an unspoken tenant of the US legal system, but you are right, it bears out repeating.

      A citizen is responsible for his or her own safety. Someone on one of these threads, it might have been UH, mentioned active shooter drills. Those are excellent, and have the potential to save many lives.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #33
        What is this nonsense talk about active shooter drills? All we need to do is to expand the no gun zones.
        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

        Prayers.

        BoRG

        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

          A citizen is responsible for his or her own safety. .

          Obama would disagree ,because this would mean that he would have less power, and that's of course a sacrilege: it would be the end of the world as the liberals are conceiving it :the government is the boss, the citizen obeys.

          The government has the exclusive right to carry weapons ,the citizen must know his place .

          As they said in Germany in the past :Führer befiehl,wir folgen dir:loose but correct translation : Obama ,give the order, we will follow you .

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            Obama would disagree ,because this would mean that he would have less power, and that's of course a sacrilege: it would be the end of the world as the liberals are conceiving it :the government is the boss, the citizen obeys.

            The government has the exclusive right to carry weapons ,the citizen must know his place .

            As they said in Germany in the past :Führer befiehl,wir folgen dir:loose but correct translation : Obama ,give the order, we will follow you .
            Not to mention, that often in the US police have the motto "To serve and protect (the government)" on their cars, etc. They always seem to leave those last two words out though...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Does anyone have body armor that can withstand that round at close range?

              That's not a rhetorical question, BTW.



              .

              Yes. SA SF took hits to there body armour from a wide range of rifles in Central african republic. Not one fatal penetration
              you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

              CPO Mzinyati

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              • #37
                South africa has a unit called flying squad.
                http://www.careerplanet.co.za/career...squad-official


                They not swat but have tatical training, body armour and assult rifels. They all so have the nice cars like suped up BMW M3s, Golf GTIs extra.

                They normally the first or second guys on scene of a shooting.


                A bunch of these guys are far better at dealing with a shooter than a patrol cop and is 9mm

                https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...uzVPvtkgCtBAqA
                Last edited by andrewza; 15 Jun 16, 07:12.
                you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                CPO Mzinyati

                Comment


                • #38
                  I know I'm quoting a page 1 post, but this will be covering a lot of ground, kind of a 'en toto' response. My perspective is as both a SWAT team member, and a patrol officer.....since I do both jobs. So as AJR already mentioned, I'm both crazy enough to do borderline suicidal things....and in the top 5% of my agency with respect to fitness, tactics, and marksmanship.

                  Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                  Does anyone have body armor that can withstand that round at close range?

                  That's not a rhetorical question, BTW.

                  Yep. I have a heavy vest (My SWAT gear) that's rated to stop that, plus my plate carrier (for when I'm wearing my patrol uniform and just need to upgrade protection level). If I was not on the team, I'd have my plate carrier. That was bought at my own expense. Issued gear will stop handgun threats only.


                  Granted, but one guy with a pistol and determination could have ended this in the first 5 minutes.
                  Here is why-
                  The shooter was alone (and granted, he was not worried about 'friendly fire' or 'target justification' so he WAS one guy confronting over 100 people at once. If the situation included one or two unknown people with guns .... well, he probably wouldn't have done it.
                  Would he?
                  But add an unknown into the mix like someone that can or is shooting back, while the event is in progress, and he has to look to his own self-preservation just to prolong his little event.

                  See it from the enemy point of view; if they rush you, you are done. If you have to pick out the guy shooing back and somebody throws a chair into your face before you get him, you are done. If you make a mistake and shoot the wrong guy first, you are done.
                  Sure changes the equations that lead to 50 dead, does it not?



                  "Average"? ... since when?
                  That is a huge problem, if it is correct. I always thought that the biggest advantage that Cops had over Gang-Bangers is that the Cops are the ones that can shoot straight.
                  What the is going on here?



                  Well, that's a hell of a revelation, but it won't do the Police any good. What are they supposed to be nowadays, armed revenue agents?
                  Past arguments on this subject are coming to mind...

                  But if that is really the overall truth, then "To protect and serve" just became "To protect myself, and serve the State".
                  And at that point, you only get the cooperation of the people at the point of a gun.
                  And it better be loaded.
                  To Be Continued!
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Depends on distance. At under about 20 feet (7 yards), he'd get a few... literally, a few... of the attackers before they were on him physically.





                    That's one on one with prepared defense. Here you have a guy facing the zombie version moving like the gun v. knife version. Dude was doomed if the crowd bum rushed him. He'd have been lucky to get more than a few and probably most of those would have survived their wounds.
                    Exactly, and when some mother or relative says they didn't have to kill him I just say, bite me.
                    My worst jump story:
                    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                    No lie.

                    ~
                    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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                    • #40
                      In post #8 in this thread, I responded to one of AR's points on page 1. Could someone here from the law enforcement background comment on it. I would like to make sure that I understood his point.

                      Thanks
                      "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
                      - Col. David Hackworth

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                      • #41
                        I am not intending this to be critical in any way but to understand your first point. I get that most patrol members do not have the equipment that SWAT does. How does this differentiate between a school shooting versus a club or mall? The time is the key. I get that it takes SWAT some time to get to a scene, access it and deal with it. But from the time ANY call comes in, the response time of SWAT will be the same.

                        Whether school or nightclub, those members must be paged and then respond. There should be no difference in those response time unless SWAT sits in a room all dressed and ready to go for school hours, which of course is not the case.
                        That seems a given yes.

                        The difference would then be :

                        "why are the first responders expected to immediately enter a school but not a nightclub" ?

                        Perhaps because the risk assessment is different ?

                        In a US school one can expect one of the students to be doing the shooting in improvised style while in other locations they expect a different, more dangerous profile to be doing the killing ?


                        I do get your points on being motivated more when it comes to children because I myself felt this way and so did my men as firefighters. We were willing to push the boundaries to save kids.
                        That too seems to be given.

                        I fully expect them the up the ante once more - it will not be long before one them decides to attack a kindergarten, day care centre or maternity or somesuch.
                        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                          That seems a given yes.

                          The difference would then be :

                          "why are the first responders expected to immediately enter a school but not a nightclub" ?

                          Perhaps because the risk assessment is different ?
                          Two reasons:

                          1) The idea of children being hurt is a powerful emotional motivator. It will cause officers who would not normally be willing to take on an active shooter to join in.

                          2) Access opportunities. Schools, hospitals, malls all have multiple entrances and breach-able points (big windows) that will allow your ad-hoc group to enter safely.

                          The key to this sort of situation is access to the interior. The point of entry is the place of greatest risk; once safely inside the risk is high, but the odds swing towards the police's greater firepower and numbers.

                          In a bar, the shooter can cover most if not all points of entry, and that means he will be one-on-one with the first officer through the door; he might have night vision, he might be behind cover, his eyes are adjusted to the current conditions...the advantage is completely in his favor. As a point in fact Orlando tactical blew holes in the wall to gain entry, and still had an officer shot.

                          It is a matter of tactics. Smoke-eaters do not enter a building that is structurally unsound, and the police don't storm buildings where the shooter controls the points of entry.

                          My agency doesn't have the capability to breach walls, so our tactic is to pump the structure full of CS gas and advance behind a shield. Last time we did it for real we had two officers wounded. Within a month the tactical team disbanded because our wives put their foot down and made us quit the team. It took years to get another team together.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            Two reasons:

                            1) The idea of children being hurt is a powerful emotional motivator. It will cause officers who would not normally be willing to take on an active shooter to join in.

                            2) Access opportunities. Schools, hospitals, malls all have multiple entrances and breach-able points (big windows) that will allow your ad-hoc group to enter safely.

                            The key to this sort of situation is access to the interior. The point of entry is the place of greatest risk; once safely inside the risk is high, but the odds swing towards the police's greater firepower and numbers.

                            In a bar, the shooter can cover most if not all points of entry, and that means he will be one-on-one with the first officer through the door; he might have night vision, he might be behind cover, his eyes are adjusted to the current conditions...the advantage is completely in his favor. As a point in fact Orlando tactical blew holes in the wall to gain entry, and still had an officer shot.

                            It is a matter of tactics. Smoke-eaters do not enter a building that is structurally unsound, and the police don't storm buildings where the shooter controls the points of entry.

                            My agency doesn't have the capability to breach walls, so our tactic is to pump the structure full of CS gas and advance behind a shield. Last time we did it for real we had two officers wounded. Within a month the tactical team disbanded because our wives put their foot down and made us quit the team. It took years to get another team together.
                            Thanks AR. I would imagine this whole event will be taken apart thread by thread to see how responses can be more effective. With easy access to firearms, whether by legal or illegal means, and this desire to inflict as much death as possible, I can see regardless of the structure, police will not not be able to hold off on attacking the gunman for 2, 3, 5, 10 hours etc..

                            If the street access was the alpha (A) side of the building, the left side bravo (B), the back being charlie (C) and the right side being delta (D), could police not have punched holes in either bravo or delta, or both, while assaulting the alpha (front door) and charlie side?
                            The reason I say this is that in this case, from survivor's accounts, once people hit the floor, he methodically starting executing people laying down. Even ones hit once, he shot them a second or third time. This was the case in Paris too. Once these terrorists decide they are willing to die to carry out their attack, time is of the essence. Otherwise, we will see this over and over again happening. There is no doubt a number of ones who desire to copy this attack they have watched and will feel they have the time to methodically execute people. Sadly there is really no way to deal with this other than to enter these buildings ASAP. Perhaps training patrol officers in assaulting structures (like infantrymen) and equipping them with long rifles and body armor that can be stored within their patrol vehicles is what will be necessary to defeat these ones. The war (on terror) between us and them well underway within our country. Game on (not a game)!! What will be our strategy? How much energy are willing to throw at this? What kind of assistance will come from state and federal government to aid municipal forces? How can we deal with ones who are known for being inspired from terrorist organizations from gaining access to legally bought firearms without affecting law abiding citizens negatively? Is there no way to shut down internet sites from countries in the Middle East that support terrorism?
                            Good god, do we ever have a lot of work to do on these and many more areas in order to protect American lives.
                            "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
                            - Col. David Hackworth

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
                              Thanks AR. I would imagine this whole event will be taken apart thread by thread to see how responses can be more effective. With easy access to firearms, whether by legal or illegal means, and this desire to inflict as much death as possible, I can see regardless of the structure, police will not not be able to hold off on attacking the gunman for 2, 3, 5, 10 hours etc..

                              If the street access was the alpha (A) side of the building, the left side bravo (B), the back being charlie (C) and the right side being delta (D), could police not have punched holes in either bravo or delta, or both, while assaulting the alpha (front door) and charlie side?
                              The reason I say this is that in this case, from survivor's accounts, once people hit the floor, he methodically starting executing people laying down. Even ones hit once, he shot them a second or third time. This was the case in Paris too. Once these terrorists decide they are willing to die to carry out their attack, time is of the essence. Otherwise, we will see this over and over again happening. There is no doubt a number of ones who desire to copy this attack they have watched and will feel they have the time to methodically execute people. Sadly there is really no way to deal with this other than to enter these buildings ASAP. Perhaps training patrol officers in assaulting structures (like infantrymen) and equipping them with long rifles and body armor that can be stored within their patrol vehicles is what will be necessary to defeat these ones. The war (on terror) between us and them well underway within our country. Game on (not a game)!! What will be our strategy? How much energy are willing to throw at this? What kind of assistance will come from state and federal government to aid municipal forces? How can we deal with ones who are known for being inspired from terrorist organizations from gaining access to legally bought firearms without affecting law abiding citizens negatively? Is there no way to shut down internet sites from countries in the Middle East that support terrorism?
                              Good god, do we ever have a lot of work to do on these and many more areas in order to protect American lives.
                              Many agencies, my own included, deploy patrol rifles with every officer. The extra body armor is not practicable due to cost and shelf life.

                              My agency can't breach walls; that is a very expensive skill set to develop, and if we did have it, it will be with the tactical team, so there is no time saving.

                              The training burden for assaulting building could be met, albeit at a prohibitive cost, but the simple fact remains that line officers are a poor option, if an option at all. Firstly, a high percentage will refuse to mount an assault, and even if they were willing, many scene commanders would not commit them to such an assault under those circumstances; I know that I would not. I am not getting officers killed.

                              So building entry ASAP in this sort of situation is exactly what Orlando did: wait for the tactical team.

                              There is no way to deny access to firearms; thousands of illegal firearms, including full auto weapons, come into the USA each year. And frankly, bombs would work better.
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                              • #45
                                Huh I didn't know much about body armor and the shelf life was something I never heard about.

                                And the V-50 thing doesn't fill me with confidence either.

                                http://www.policemag.com/channel/pat...ody-armor.aspx
                                Credo quia absurdum.


                                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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