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  • #16
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    I used to teach ju jitsu, from which aikido is derived, but even when I was at my best I would not stand much chance against someone with a machine gun. Real life is not like the movies. May get a small chance if he was reloading or if his gun jammed like those American servicemen on that French train. Or if he was overly distracted killing someone else. But then again your relying on other people to die to get you close enough to act.
    Better to die on your feet than on your knees. We need to be as a people mentally willing to defend others, and if you get killed at least you can stand tall at judgement day.
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      Does anyone have body armor that can withstand that round at close range?

      That's not a rhetorical question, BTW.
      Yeah, there are, but only as over vests. Ballistic entry shields are your best bet.

      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      Granted, but one guy with a pistol and determination could have ended this in the first 5 minutes.
      Four off duty officers engaged him before the incident started and failed to gets hit. That sort of thing sounds great, but is very hard to actually accomplish.


      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      "Average"? ... since when?
      That is a huge problem, if it is correct. I always thought that the biggest advantage that Cops had over Gang-Bangers is that the Cops are the ones that can shoot straight.
      What the is going on here?
      Since always. Yes, police officers nearly always out shoot criminals. But it is because criminals as a group tend to be terrible shots. DoJ shows the average police officer under combat conditions hit 1 in six shots. Criminals hit 1 in 10.


      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      Well, that's a hell of a revelation, but it won't do the Police any good. What are they supposed to be nowadays, armed revenue agents?
      Past arguments on this subject are coming to mind...
      It's only news to the uninformed. Nobody is going to get themselves killed over a pay check. Of course, as I hAve suggested before, ex, if you can do it better, step up and show us how it is done.

      But if that is really the overall truth, then "To protect and serve" just became "To protect myself, and serve the State".
      And at that point, you only get the cooperation of the people at the point of a gun.
      And it better be loaded.
      That is the motto of LAPD. I don't know why you keep bringing it up. None of us took a blood oath. It's not the infantry. Never in the history of the USA has a police officer been legally required to do or die. The Bill of Rights applies to us, same as everyone else: life, liberty, etc.

      A real life combat situation is a lot different than video games, Ex. There's no respawning, no do-overs.
      Last edited by Arnold J Rimmer; 14 Jun 16, 17:32.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Surrey View Post
        But the crowd would have to have some kind of organisation to overpower him and you still have to have those at the front prepared to die. Neither likely to happen in a night club situation.
        Agreed. The crowd probably had zero people that were ex-military, military, law enforcement, or even things like martial arts and such practitioners among them. Add in most or all were in some degree of drunkenness and you have a herd of sheep in a panic.
        I'd bet many milled around uselessly without a clue what to do other than stand there and scream...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Surrey View Post
          I used to teach ju jitsu, from which aikido is derived, but even when I was at my best I would not stand much chance against someone with a machine gun. Real life is not like the movies. May get a small chance if he was reloading or if his gun jammed like those American servicemen on that French train. Or if he was overly distracted killing someone else. But then again your relying on other people to die to get you close enough to act.
          Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

          John 15:13

          One of the verses that formed me.
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
            Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

            John 15:13

            One of the verses that formed me.
            And yet you're still alive...
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              Depends on distance. At under about 20 feet (7 yards), he'd get a few... literally, a few... of the attackers before they were on him physically.





              That's one on one with prepared defense. Here you have a guy facing the zombie version moving like the gun v. knife version. Dude was doomed if the crowd bum rushed him. He'd have been lucky to get more than a few and probably most of those would have survived their wounds.
              And the ones taking rounds aren't "doomed to certain death". Panic fire against a moving target is highly inaccurate. There would be wounds but few and possibly no fatalities. Now, that said, conditioning is a factor. Flight is the default setting in fight or flight. Unless people are conditioned to rush an attacker, they won't. Not because of cowardice but simply because that is how instinct works. The economics of a civilian assault are easy to crunch in air conditioning and safety but without training it is hard to act thus when the chips are down.
              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                And yet you're still alive...
                He already made the sacrifice. And I was A/F not some grunt.

                Imo ground pounders and trigger pullers are in that profession because they couldn't place any higher on the ASVAB...
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                  He already made the sacrifice. And I was A/F not some grunt.

                  Imo ground pounders and trigger pullers are in that profession because they couldn't place any higher on the ASVAB...
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Agreed. The crowd probably had zero people that were ex-military, military, law enforcement, or even things like martial arts and such practitioners among them. Add in most or all were in some degree of drunkenness and you have a herd of sheep in a panic.
                    I'd bet many milled around uselessly without a clue what to do other than stand there and scream...
                    I'm pretty sure no GOP votes were lost in the incident.

                    But you make a good point. I hadn't considered the target crowd in that light.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      I'm pretty sure no GOP votes were lost in the incident.

                      But you make a good point. I hadn't considered the target crowd in that light.
                      I've been told a lot of young ladies go to those because they won't have guys hitting on them...
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        All good post, and thanks to the LEOs for sharing their insight.
                        It would be tough to assault a building with hundreds of people inside, not knowing who is who.
                        But has happened in the past and will happen again, each case is different.
                        In this case hostages were involved, I think that is the main reason force was held back.
                        But what happened to the first man that engaged the shooter? The off duty officer doing security, after he fired, did he survive?
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                          All good post, and thanks to the LEOs for sharing their insight.
                          It would be tough to assault a building with hundreds of people inside, not knowing who is who.
                          But has happened in the past and will happen again, each case is different.
                          In this case hostages were involved, I think that is the main reason force was held back.
                          But what happened to the first man that engaged the shooter? The off duty officer doing security, after he fired, did he survive?
                          All four did. They broke contact when they realized they were out-gunned
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            This incident will be pondered in agencies across the nation, but the simple truth that will dominate the situation is that the US police system is not designed to deal with terrorists.

                            We were lucky he hit in a decent-sized city; there are bars he could have shot up that are in areas where just getting a full perimeter around the building could tax the local resources, and where it could take three hours for a team to arrive on scene and begin getting organized.

                            There are no clear answers. Hopefully one lesson learned from San B and Orlando will be to stop the silly bleating about the militarization of the police. Both incidents required armored vehicles to resolve, as well as military body armor and helmets, and military hardware.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              This incident will be pondered in agencies across the nation, but the simple truth that will dominate the situation is that the US police system is not designed to deal with terrorists.

                              We were lucky he hit in a decent-sized city; there are bars he could have shot up that are in areas where just getting a full perimeter around the building could tax the local resources, and where it could take three hours for a team to arrive on scene and begin getting organized.

                              There are no clear answers. Hopefully one lesson learned from San B and Orlando will be to stop the silly bleating about the militarization of the police. Both incidents required armored vehicles to resolve, as well as military body armor and helmets, and military hardware.
                              Nope the real lessen it that the government can't protect you in this type of situation and that you need to be proactive and be prepared. If some bozo like this walked into a cop bar what would've happened? A bunch of armed cops dying? Methinks not.

                              Also that he strolled in with a AR should have marked him as a target from the git go. I know if I saw some guy pull a rifle in a urban setting he's up to no good and should be taken to task and shot if he doesn't put it on the ground and kept there till the cops arrive...

                              Gun cases are how you carry a long rifle to a different local. (Also keeps the scope sighted in.)
                              Credo quia absurdum.


                              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                                Since always. Yes, police officers nearly always out shoot criminals. But it is because criminals as a group tend to be terrible shots. DoJ shows the average police officer under combat conditions hit 1 in six shots. Criminals hit 1 in 10.
                                That ain't nowhere near good enough. You know it, I know it, and so must a hell of a lot of other people.
                                It takes years to grow a good Cop, criminals spring up like weeds.
                                One is six is actually damn good, vastly better than what I saw in service. However, you guys need to have a ten to one kill ratio and if the criminals are that good you need to be a lot better.

                                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                                It's only news to the uninformed. Nobody is going to get themselves killed over a pay check. Of course, as I hAve suggested before, ex, if you can do it better, step up and show us how it is done.
                                A paycheck, thats all there is to it, eh?
                                I was expecting something more would be involved, especially from a Branch of the Govt that has the power that the Military does not have; the ability to walk up and get in the face of any US citizen and start giving them orders... and shoot them if they don't comply.

                                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                                A real life combat situation is a lot different than video games, Ex. There's no respawning, no do-overs.
                                You keep resorting to that kind of insulting B.S. when you get cornered, so I know for sure I hit a sore spot there.

                                I hit a personal milestone the other day. A couple of weeks ago I took my pistol to the range and put six rounds into an 8 x 11 target at a range of 8 yards.
                                Time from the first shot to the last; just under 2 seconds.

                                Now, if an over-the-hill character like me can pick up a skill like that, anyone that is serious about it can do the same.
                                I just wish more of them would.
                                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                                -Captain Jack

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