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  • So a Man Walks into a Bar

    I know there is a thread on the deed already, but I wanted to explore a tangent:

    How does one man get a body count of over 100 inside a building, operating by himself?

    Orlando certainly has fire codes, so there must be more than one egress. The shooter has to reload, maintain alert in case a potential victim is armed or aggressive...this guy got off a hundred aimed shots in pure chaos in less time than it took for the police to respond to a 911 call or for a bar to empty out.

    The logistics of this intrigues me. I shoot very regularly, and routinely score 95% or higher, but I am looking at that situation and asked myself, how the blazes did he do it?

    I think it is important because there are going to be individuals inspired by his act, and they will be looking at his tactics as well.
    Last edited by Post Captain; 13 Jun 16, 10:44.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

  • #2
    Good question...
    How many were hit at the beginning and how many during the SWAT team entry?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
      Good question...
      How many were hit at the beginning and how many during the SWAT team entry?
      By the time SWAT responded (Orlando's team is on call-out status, which means an hour lag at least) I would expect that the killing was done.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        I know there is a thread on the deed already, but I wanted to explore a tangent:

        How does one man get a body count of over 100 inside a building, operating by himself?

        Orlando certainly has fire codes, so there must be more than one egress. The shooter has to reload, maintain alert in case a potential victim is armed or aggressive...this guy got off a hundred aimed shots in pure chaos in less time than it took for the police to respond to a 911 call or for a bar to empty out.

        The logistics of this intrigues me. I shoot very regularly, and routinely score 95% or higher, but I am looking at that situation and asked myself, how the blazes did he do it?

        I think it is important because there are going to be individuals inspired by his act, and they will be looking at his tactics as well.
        In a crowded room with a large caliber weapon, the shooter can count on over-penetration - one round can hit two or three people.
        Last edited by Mountain Man; 12 Jun 16, 16:56. Reason: spelling error due to diplopia
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #5
          He had three hours to do as he wished before the Swat team arrived.

          According to the link the attack started at 2am but the response wasn't until 5am.

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36511778

          The witnesses talk of him taking hostages. If the victims didn't think they were going to be killed then they have less incentive to take risks.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • #6
            I thought that the current response to an active shooter is to go in immediately and not wait to assemble a team?

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            • #7
              Hello? Anybody home? Think McFly, think!




              How many of the patrons were several times over the "legal limit" and about as useful as a banana slug when it came to responding in a rational way to what was happening...

              Comment


              • #8
                Beginnings of a time line.

                http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...613-story.html

                Appears the club hired armed off duty police for security. He engaged them and they engaged him before he went into the club.
                “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                “To talk of many things:
                Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                Of cabbages—and kings—
                And why the sea is boiling hot—
                And whether pigs have wings.”
                ― Lewis Carroll

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                  I thought that the current response to an active shooter is to go in immediately and not wait to assemble a team?
                  That is for schools. When kids are involved, you pull out all the stops.

                  With this sort of situation, most agencies will treat it as a barricaded subject and wait for the troops and toys to arrive.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How many wounded bled out in those three hours? Maybe that's how he killed so many; it wasn't accurate shooting but lack of medical treatment.

                    PS-I am in no way blaming the police for the actions of the madman, I just think that they could've handled it better. It wasn't like a typical hostage situation where no one had been shot yet. They knew there were a bunch of people inside who had been shot.
                    Last edited by johns624; 12 Jun 16, 16:34.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                      How many wounded bled out in those three hours? Maybe that's how he killed so many; it wasn't accurate shooting but lack of medical treatment.
                      Very possible.

                      However, to go in without a team means you are sending officers in without real organization, and without the proper training for that sort of work. LEOs are trained to work alone or in very small groups within very defined legal arcs.

                      Sending them into an active shooter situation means that you are accepting a high probability of officer casualties.

                      For school kids, most agencies will take that risk. For a gay bar, not so much.

                      Police work is not the military. A commander says 'get in there and find that shooter' and an officer says 'nope', there is nothing more that can be done. Unlike soldiers, LEOs are not under any legal obligation to take risks outside their ordinary duties, and storming buildings is definitely outside normal duties.

                      That is the key aspect of tactical teams: they are not just trained and equipped for these sort of assaults, if the agency knows what it is doing, the individual members are screened and selected as the type who will actually commit to that level of risk.

                      Even so, they don't move fast. You can figure they took at least an hour to study the building and layout before the team moved.
                      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                        Very possible.

                        However, to go in without a team means you are sending officers in without real organization, and without the proper training for that sort of work. LEOs are trained to work alone or in very small groups within very defined legal arcs.

                        Sending them into an active shooter situation means that you are accepting a high probability of officer casualties.

                        For school kids, most agencies will take that risk. For a gay bar, not so much.

                        Police work is not the military. A commander says 'get in there and find that shooter' and an officer says 'nope', there is nothing more that can be done. Unlike soldiers, LEOs are not under any legal obligation to take risks outside their ordinary duties, and storming buildings is definitely outside normal duties.

                        That is the key aspect of tactical teams: they are not just trained and equipped for these sort of assaults, if the agency knows what it is doing, the individual members are screened and selected as the type who will actually commit to that level of risk.

                        Even so, they don't move fast. You can figure they took at least an hour to study the building and layout before the team moved.
                        As it should be.
                        “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                        “To talk of many things:
                        Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                        Of cabbages—and kings—
                        And why the sea is boiling hot—
                        And whether pigs have wings.”
                        ― Lewis Carroll

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          WAs just reading more on the shooting: he downed a third of the clientele in the initial attack. Not one third of his victims, one third of the occupants of the bar. The logistics of this is still weighing on my curiosity. How the blazes did a guy with no formal training do that?

                          Advancing behind an armored vehicle and using flash bangs, one officer was still wounded.

                          The second terror attack in less than a year is already heating up the LEO boards.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            WAs just reading more on the shooting: he downed a third of the clientele in the initial attack. Not one third of his victims, one third of the occupants of the bar. The logistics of this is still weighing on my curiosity. How the blazes did a guy with no formal training do that?

                            Advancing behind an armored vehicle and using flash bangs, one officer was still wounded.

                            The second terror attack in less than a year is already heating up the LEO boards.
                            He apparently does have some training. He worked for a security company called G4S as an armed guard and had been licensed to carry firearms as part of his employment. I'd assume the company trained him to some degree and that he probably practiced as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              He apparently does have some training. He worked for a security company called G4S as an armed guard and had been licensed to carry firearms as part of his employment. I'd assume the company trained him to some degree and that he probably practiced as well.
                              Point, but TAG, I'm a very good shot, I train very regularly, and I don't know if I could hit a third of a crowded bar's occupants before it cleared. You've seen bars empty fast or one reason or another; can you imagine trying to fire accurately under those conditions?

                              Other shooters have failed to secure that level of body count, and failed. What did this guy do that was different?

                              Maybe a suppressor? Did he block doors like the Virginia Tech guy?
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                              Comment

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