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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I see no apology here, and if you actually read history, you will find that the Irish were enslaved in the Americas and elsewhere before the Africans were. The blacks owe their slavery to their African fellow blacks, who are the ones who rounded them up and sold them off in the first place. That's history. So is the fact that slavery is still practiced in Africa today.

    Of course, your other half being British, you probably would prefer not to publicize the facts about the Irish..

    Indentured servitude, BTW, is de facto slavery, as any Irish tenant farmer could tell you.

    The point is, it's past history - time to move on, suck it up and be something other than a professional victim. My Irish ancestors did, and did it quite well.
    I agree with the lets-move-on sentiment.

    But the Irish indentured labour (slaves if you wish) were not despatched to the new world because they were Irish but because they constituted a convenient labour force, Englishmen found themselves thus treated as well,particularly after the Monmouth Rebellion (1685).
    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
    Samuel Johnson.

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    • #32
      Wait!

      On my mother's side I've a heavy Armenian heritage. Can't I get a claim against Turkey, or Germany for that holocaust that "didn't" happen about a century ago? !

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      • #33
        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
        Wait!

        On my mother's side I've a heavy Armenian heritage. Can't I get a claim against Turkey, or Germany for that holocaust that "didn't" happen about a century ago? !

        Perhaps ,but no need to go that far back.My parents' home was damaged byLuftwaffe bombing in 1940. Perhaps a brief note to Frau Merkel ?

        Life's too short.
        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
        Samuel Johnson.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post
          You mean like signing for a mortgage ya cant pay back and blame it on predatory banking practices..??
          Easy fix, find a better job than McDonald's and/or stop popping out babies.
          My worst jump story:
          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
          No lie.

          ~
          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Surrey View Post
            People are tricked into things all the time. On the other hand if a potential employer was going to pay in advance the not inconsiderable cost of an Atlantic passage, he would want his employees to have to work for him for a set minimum period of time.

            Prisoners of War being indentured was mentioned. These were not true POWs but rather captured rebels from 1745. As such they were lucky to still have their heads.
            Surrey: my POW indentured servant in New England was from the English Civil War in the 1600s (I know, I know a rebel) but he was Scottish and there was an ongoing war between England and Scotland for centuries. So at any rate enslaving rebels or POWs was a common practice of the English. (I am not denigrating England so much as her practices. Most of my genetic code derives from the British Isles, with many, many 1600s Puritan ancestors from Devon, Cornwall and Sussex/Essex). Also going a little farther in nasty English practices, they would hi-jack men from off the streets in many ports and men they deemed English off of American ships prior to 1812 to man British ships (an issue that contributed greatly to our War of 1812). The English just historically liked un-free and forced labor. The roots of much of our un-free labor practices, in its many forms, derive from England.
            Homo homini lupus

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Jannie View Post
              Surrey: my POW indentured servant in New England was from the English Civil War in the 1600s (I know, I know a rebel) but he was Scottish and there was an ongoing war between England and Scotland for centuries. So at any rate enslaving rebels or POWs was a common practice of the English. (I am not denigrating England so much as her practices. Most of my genetic code derives from the British Isles, with many, many 1600s Puritan ancestors from Devon, Cornwall and Sussex/Essex). Also going a little farther in nasty English practices, they would hi-jack men from off the streets in many ports and men they deemed English off of American ships prior to 1812 to man British ships (an issue that contributed greatly to our War of 1812). The English just historically liked un-free and forced labor. The roots of much of our un-free labor practices, in its many forms, derive from England.
              The English Civil war included conflict in Scotland and Ireland as well. The conflict actually originated in Scotland with the Covenantors rebellion being a major trigger and motivation for the rebellion in England.
              The conflict was not between England and Scotland but between the King (who ruled both England and Scotland) and his supporters in all three kingdoms versus the English Parliment, Scottish Covenantors and Parliment and the Scots Irish in Ireland on the other. Which side was your ancestor on?
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                The English Civil war included conflict in Scotland and Ireland as well. The conflict actually originated in Scotland with the Covenantors rebellion being a major trigger and motivation for the rebellion in England.
                The conflict was not between England and Scotland but between the King (who ruled both England and Scotland) and his supporters in all three kingdoms versus the English Parliment, Scottish Covenantors and Parliment and the Scots Irish in Ireland on the other. Which side was your ancestor on?
                My ancestor was George Darling.
                George Darling was captured at the Battle of Dunbar Scotland by Oliver Cromwells troops. He was sent as an indentured servant to the Lynn Ironworks in Lynn Mass. His services were purchased by John Bex and Co. George worked at the Ironworks from 1653 to 1661. George arrived in the US aboard the ship Unity. Prisoners captured were first taken to Durham Castle Scotland and then sent to London England for trial. After trial they were sent to British Colonies with about 30-40 being sent to parts of MA.
                Source: from a posting on a genealogical site

                I assume from the fact that he was captured by Oliver Cromwell's troops that he was actually for the King that Cromwell deposed. Certainly the Scots prisoners at Lynn were sort of hell-raisers and did not fit in with the Puritan culture. I have been to the historical site at Hammersmith Iron Works in Lynn, MA and the guides there sort of talk proudly about how they did not fit in. And there are court records (Essex County, MA court records) about how they liked to sit around a local tavern, get drunk, roll into the fire, carouse and carry on. THe little bits that I can find out about the Scots at Lynn and there were several, are that they were making the best of a bad situation.
                Last edited by Jannie; 12 Jun 16, 12:00.
                Homo homini lupus

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jannie View Post
                  My ancestor was George Darling.

                  Source: from a posting on a genealogical site

                  I assume from the fact that he was captured by Oliver Cromwell's troops that he was actually for the King that Cromwell deposed. Certainly the Scots prisoners at Lynn were sort of hell-raisers and did not fit in with the Puritan culture. I have been to the historical site at Hammersmith Iron Works in Lynn, MA and the guides there sort of talk proudly about how they did not fit in.
                  Bit more complicated than that. Leslie, the Scots commander at Dunbar was originally an ally of Cromwell. He was the commander of the Covenator troops.
                  After C1's execution however the Scots switched sides and supported C11. The switching sides probably annoyed Cromwell...

                  After the restoration the Scots Covenanters, who I am guessing you ancestor was one were rewarded by being massacred and suppressed by C11 and his brother James. Bloody Claverhouse's actions were far worse than Cromwell ever did in Scotland.
                  "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                  • #39
                    Surrey: thanks for the information. But if he was a Covenanter (Protestant? Presbyterian?) why did he not fit in with the Puritan culture.

                    Sigh! Now you are going to make me go and read more history.
                    Homo homini lupus

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jannie View Post
                      Surrey: my POW indentured servant in New England was from the English Civil War in the 1600s (I know, I know a rebel) but he was Scottish and there was an ongoing war between England and Scotland for centuries. So at any rate enslaving rebels or POWs was a common practice of the English. (I am not denigrating England so much as her practices. Most of my genetic code derives from the British Isles, with many, many 1600s Puritan ancestors from Devon, Cornwall and Sussex/Essex). Also going a little farther in nasty English practices, they would hi-jack men from off the streets in many ports and men they deemed English off of American ships prior to 1812 to man British ships (an issue that contributed greatly to our War of 1812). The English just historically liked un-free and forced labor. The roots of much of our un-free labor practices, in its many forms, derive from England.
                      Not just England, or " English practices " : it's the way things generally were throughout Europe-and the World- for much of History. They did things differently then, and to attribute all the evils you mention only to England -or Britain -distorts matters.
                      As for "un-free labor practices" ,note where the trade union movement originated.
                      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                      Samuel Johnson.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                        The Irish where NOT human chattle. The idiot that posted the silly FB meme does not understand that. No, I don't think anyone alive today deserves reparations. However comparing slaverynto the Irish is idiotic.
                        Wow! Talk about apples and oranges! Reparations are idiotic for numerous reasons; the time for them is long past, there has been too much ethnic mixing over the years; the President is a perfect example, he has slave ancestors on his white mother's side. With that being said whoever made that meme is an uninformed idiot!
                        Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                        Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                        Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                          Wow! Talk about apples and oranges! Reparations are idiotic for numerous reasons; the time for them is long past, there has been too much ethnic mixing over the years; the President is a perfect example, he has slave ancestors on his white mother's side. With that being said whoever made that meme is an uninformed idiot!
                          Don't you mean slave owners on his mother's side.

                          George Washington Overall, owned two slaves a 15-year-old black girl and 25-year-old black man.

                          Mary Duvall, also owned two slaves a 60-year-old black man and 58-year-old black woman.

                          Mareen Duvall, a land owner in the 1600s who owned 18 slaves.
                          My worst jump story:
                          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                          No lie.

                          ~
                          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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