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  • #31
    Originally posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    You make false assumptions. Rather ask:

    1. Are the "workers" happy where they are?

    2. Are the "workers" capable of retraining?

    3. Are the "workers" "institutionalized"?

    Not all of humanity is geared up for "advanced training". In fact, it has been my experience that many "workers" are already past their capabilities.

    GG
    Good points.

    Plus who says that everyone wants to work in a cubicle shuffling paper (real or electronic)? Some people like to work with their hands, even if it is on an assembly line.

    This blasé attitude of 'let them eat cake', job-wise, is extremely unwise.

    Not everyone wants to be a pointless office drone.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      Good points.

      Plus who says that everyone wants to work in a cubicle shuffling paper (real or electronic)? Some people like to work with their hands, even if it is on an assembly line.

      This blasé attitude of 'let them eat cake', job-wise, is extremely unwise.

      Not everyone wants to be a pointless office drone.
      Yeah, but there is this thing called reality. I don't like office jobs, nor did I like manual labor, or any job that seems to be without any real benefits to anyone. Ie. this consumer society is rotten to the bone, and it has decreased the value of work to such a low point that it's not worth doing anymore.

      And none of it matters. You wanna do manual labor then work for minimum wage and compete with the robots, or educate yourself with useful skill or **** off to eternal welfare. Or I dunno, become a luddite?

      In any case, no one, and I mean absolutely no one, is gonna ask those people who are going to be replaced anything. At most our american friends will condemn them for being welfare leeches and people without morals or ethics and whatnot.
      Wisdom is personal

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Karri View Post
        Yeah, but there is this thing called reality. I don't like office jobs, nor did I like manual labor, or any job that seems to be without any real benefits to anyone. Ie. this consumer society is rotten to the bone, and it has decreased the value of work to such a low point that it's not worth doing anymore.

        And none of it matters. You wanna do manual labor then work for minimum wage and compete with the robots, or educate yourself with useful skill or **** off to eternal welfare. Or I dunno, become a luddite?

        In any case, no one, and I mean absolutely no one, is gonna ask those people who are going to be replaced anything. At most our american friends will condemn them for being welfare leeches and people without morals or ethics and whatnot.
        You don't get out much, do you? There are a lot of skilled jobs that allow you to work with your hands.

        But my point, which you missed, is that you will see an emotional backlash from this sort of thing, and you will need a better answer than' work in some meaningless office job'.

        Voters do not like that sort of answer. Nor are most people who have had jobs willing to live on the declining welfare state in the USA.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Karri View Post
          Yeah, but there is this thing called reality. I don't like office jobs, nor did I like manual labor, or any job that seems to be without any real benefits to anyone. Ie. this consumer society is rotten to the bone, and it has decreased the value of work to such a low point that it's not worth doing anymore.

          And none of it matters. You wanna do manual labor then work for minimum wage and compete with the robots, or educate yourself with useful skill or **** off to eternal welfare. Or I dunno, become a luddite?

          In any case, no one, and I mean absolutely no one, is gonna ask those people who are going to be replaced anything. At most our american friends will condemn them for being welfare leeches and people without morals or ethics and whatnot.
          Back in ancient times many societies were essentially divided into slave owners and slaves. The slaves did all the work and got paid nothing, the slave owners got all the benefits. This would be immoral today but not if instead of being slave owners we all become in some way robotics owners. Getting there is the difficult part.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
            Getting there is the difficult part.
            That is the problem, and it had better be addressed smartly, or the next generation is heading for trouble.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post
              Back in ancient times many societies were essentially divided into slave owners and slaves. The slaves did all the work and got paid nothing, the slave owners got all the benefits. This would be immoral today but not if instead of being slave owners we all become in some way robotics owners. Getting there is the difficult part.
              Well, in a way it continued all the way into middle ages. Peasants were pretty much slaves, land and people equaled power. Black death, at lest according to some theories, disrupted this because the population drop was so drastic that unless you paid for a workforce you didn't have one. We are not slaves today, but of course money remains as means of control and power, as do other things. Robotics is essential in getting us there, though where ever there is, is hard to determine. Energy is of course a major factory in how everything works, so I assume technology in that direction is going to improve a lot of things. The production costs today are already so low that transportation is one of the biggest expenses, even though that too is dirt cheap; I would imagine the driver being a major expense in there...maybe that's why they're pouring so much money in automated driving.
              Wisdom is personal

              Comment


              • #37
                Here is something to chew on (pun intended), the president of NRA (no, not that NRA, the National Restaurant Association) on Tuesday released a interesting insight into the minimum wage debate....
                In effect he said it is cheaper to install a $30,000.00 robotic system them to raise salaries to $15.00 accross the board.
                Then there is this.

                Robots are among us. And they’re not just for the back of the house anymore. Automation can enhance food safety, efficiency and consistency and allows guests to easily customize meals. Here are three automation innovations from the NRA Show:
                http://www.restaurant.org/News-Resea...t-the-NRA-Show

                This is just the start, car salesmen, bank tellers, pilots, submarine crews, all can be replaced by robots or by remote controllers.
                In fact the list of careers that have been made obsolete in the past 30 years maybe longer than the list of new careers created.
                We can debate the value of those careers till ice falls in Hawaii, but what is not addressed is the loss of tax payers.
                Each employee is a tax payer. Each employee is in their own way contributing to the economy.
                Eisenhower once wrote that capitalism will defeat communism as long as capitalism provides an opportunity to all those who participate in it.
                As romantic as it is for man to create robots in his own image, it will ultimately make capitalism obsolete.
                Capitalism can only function when labor is appreciated and encouraged, not by eliminating opertunity.
                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                  Every technological change including the introduction of steam power has left large numbers of workers without a traditional job but at the same time created new jobs requiring different skills. The world is going to need lots more creative and/or empathic skills and far fewer machine minders and waitresses etc. The problem will be as it has always been inculcating new skills into people and what to do about those people who are too stubborn/hidebound or simply not intelligent enough to change. There will be a short term spike in people employed to retrain and educate people and it won't be nice - but then it never has been.
                  Problem is we are reaching the point where there are no new jobs to create. Technology can replace humans in all these situations.

                  We're making ourselves obsolete.
                  ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                  BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                  BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                    Problem is we are reaching the point where there are no new jobs to create. Technology can replace humans in all these situations.

                    We're making ourselves obsolete.
                    In the UK alone despite the 2008 crash

                     Total employment in the Creative Economy across the UK has increased by 5.0 per cent between 2013 and 2014 (2.6 million to 2.8 million jobs) and by 13.7 per cent since 2011.
                     The number of jobs in the Creative Industries (including both creative and support jobs), increased by 5.5 per cent between 2013 and 2014 to 1.8 million jobs. This was an increase of 15.8 per cent since 2011.
                     In 2014 there were 1.9 million jobs in Creative Occupations, a 6.4 per cent increase since 2013 and 13.7 per cent higher than 2011.
                     These increases compare with a 2.1 per cent increase in the total number of jobs in the wider UK economy between 2013 and 2014.
                    Source Department for Culture, Media & Sport
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                      In the UK alone despite the 2008 crash



                      Source Department for Culture, Media & Sport
                      What are these Creative Occupations? Sounds like retail and food service. All things that will be deemed obsolete.
                      ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                      BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                      BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                        What are these Creative Occupations? Sounds like retail and food service. All things that will be deemed obsolete.
                        Media, entertainment, the arts, fashion, design, sports, craft products, some aspects of information provision, haute cusine etc etc the clue was in "Department for Culture, Media & Sport" None of these things can be done by machines or machine intelligence,
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          Media, entertainment, the arts, fashion, design, sports, craft products, some aspects of information provision, haute cusine etc etc the clue was in "Department for Culture, Media & Sport" None of these things can be done by machines or machine intelligence,
                          So everyone has to do something they may have little talent for. This is the logic behind the argument, " technology will free man from repetitive task and be free to express themselves"
                          If the people that currently do those jobs had the inclination to do so, they would have pursued those lines.
                          And what you over look is that at this time technology can not carry out those task, that doesn't mean they won't in the future.
                          But more importantly, who will purchase anything produced by creative individuals when so few are employed?
                          Destroying the working class is not the way to make society better.
                          Last edited by Urban hermit; 02 Jun 16, 19:59.
                          Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                          Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I'm listening to a interesting debate on the Beeb about Basic Income.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
                            Credo quia absurdum.


                            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                              Media, entertainment, the arts, fashion, design, sports, craft products, some aspects of information provision, haute cusine etc etc the clue was in "Department for Culture, Media & Sport" None of these things can be done by machines or machine intelligence,
                              Arts, fashion and design? Are you serious?

                              I honestly thought they meant something different with "creative". Like getting creative in finding jobs for all the obsolete workers the world over.

                              Nothing you listed above is a valid replacement for the workforce in general, and basically seems like a bad joke.

                              This isn't Star Trek: TNG.
                              Last edited by Gixxer86g; 02 Jun 16, 17:30.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                                Arts, fashion and design? Are you serious?
                                Very - one reason why US industry has declined in many areas is because it employs too few designers. As any one with more than two brain cells to rub together knows design is about far more than producing fancy frocks as Porsche, Rolex, Oceanco, Cartier. Asus, Jaguar etc etc will tell you whilst the many many Internet service companies employ artists and writers by the truck load.
                                Department of Labor stats show that the USA employ about half as many people in in creative occupations than many other first world countries. One of the reasons it gives for this is international competition. Robots can churn out cheap stuff even more cheaply but it cannot design advanced products. America used to be good at design.
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                                Comment

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