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  • #16
    Originally posted by ChrisF1987 View Post
    You have a very valid point (and your 100% correct) but what else can we do? What are we to do with all these jobless people?

    Remember, we are basically down to a service based economy. Fast food and retail make up a big portion of new jobs created. When they go, there's nothing left.
    The thing is, why would anyone work if the government gives away free money?

    For that matter, how much value would that money have?

    I understand your point, but the logistics escapes me. To hand out billions of dollars for free, someone has to be paying that in. Why shoulder a tax load when for 10% less, you never have to work again?

    That sounds like an idea that will have a culture imploding.

    Welfare isn't that great, but we are seeing fourth-generation receiptants of what was intended to be temporary aid.

    History shows that bread and circuses are at best a temporary fix.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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    • #17
      well I for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
      45B10 1986-91

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        The thing is, why would anyone work if the government gives away free money?

        For that matter, how much value would that money have?

        I understand your point, but the logistics escapes me. To hand out billions of dollars for free, someone has to be paying that in. Why shoulder a tax load when for 10% less, you never have to work again?

        That sounds like an idea that will have a culture imploding.

        Welfare isn't that great, but we are seeing fourth-generation receiptants of what was intended to be temporary aid.

        History shows that bread and circuses are at best a temporary fix.
        They have become the government's permanent fix.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by popuptarget View Post
          well I for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
          Who will pay taxes?
          Who will be able to buy anything when there is no need for employees?
          You can not have a tax payer supported welfare system without tax payers.
          Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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          • #20
            Back in the 60s when Britain still had a hosiery industry there was a job for people (usualy women) who sat all day as stretches of stocking fabric rolled before them, they were looking for slight changes in the pattern of the weave that indicated a flaw. If they spotted one they pressed a button and that particular piece of fabric was rejected. That's all they did all day, five days a week, year in year out. A team from Leicester University experimented and discovered that hens could be trained to do the same job, much more cheaply and with greater accuracy and consistency. The union went ballistic threatening dire consequences through large scale industrial action if these jobs were replaced and the idea was dropped. To me it was demeaning for humans to be employed doing a job that a fowl could do (and the jobs went anyway when production was shifted to the Far East that could produce the fabric much more cheaply)

            In the British car industry at the time there was a job that involved taking keys for new cars and putting them on a key ring, that's all it was and it was reported to be the most boring job in the world and yet there were men who did it for a large part of their working lives.

            I used to have a vacation job in a subsidiary of Colt that made specialised self tapping screws. There were men sitting at benches with hoppers for scews in front of them and a pile of order slips and a small weighing machine. All they did all day was to pick up a slip, weigh out the amount of which ever screw was on it into a box, attach the order slip to the box and put it on the trolly that when full someone like me would push to the post room. There were men there who had been doing the same job for years.

            If robots can do these sort of soul destroying repetitive jobs it's immoral to use humans.
            What is needed is to create more useful and fulfilling jobs and see that people are properly trained and educated to do them. Unfortunately in a free market private enterprise economy this will eventually happen but it does not happen painlessly or quickly
            Last edited by MarkV; 27 May 16, 04:27.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
              Who will pay taxes?
              Who will be able to buy anything when there is no need for employees?
              You can not have a tax payer supported welfare system without tax payers.
              Unless you have state control and/or direction of industry (which I suspect that few on this forum have any stomach for) it is going to happen. In a free market industrialists and other enterprise owners are interested in maximising their own profits whilst staving off competition. If they can do this by employing fewer people in proportion to their business volumes they will do it without that much concern for larger socio economic consequences.

              Even if you do have state control and/or direction of industry, in a globalised world economy your businesses will be out competed and wilt away. Of course the USA could ask that nice Mr Trump to extend his wall all round the country and refuse to trade with anyone and indeed his economic policy appears to be to build a virtual wall but, large though the US economy is, it isn't self sustaining and that in the end means following a similar pathway to NK.

              What is needed is a new form of entrepreneurship that identifies and builds new forms of business that use people to provide new services that other people want (but until they exist don't actually realise that they want).
              Last edited by MarkV; 27 May 16, 04:57.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • #22
                As the cost of wages gets phased out of goods, and an item is only worth the raw materials used to make it, we will transit to a true post monetary society.
                One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions - Admiral Grace Hopper

                "The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity."
                Wu Cheng'en Monkey

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                  Who will pay taxes?
                  Who will be able to buy anything when there is no need for employees?
                  You can not have a tax payer supported welfare system without a majority of tax payers.
                  Fixed that for you.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    Fixed that for you.
                    Thanks, I guess we already have a system where 50% of the population is supported by the other 50%, unless you add in public employees.
                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                      Thanks, I guess we already have a system where 50% of the population is supported by the other 50%, unless you add in public employees.
                      Public employees pay taxes, so they are a lessened burden at least.

                      Private sector jobs are the only hope for a nation.
                      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                      • #26
                        AJ - did you say your guys work for less than $50k? Up heah on the shoht seacoast our LE guys usually start at $65-70k. After a few years and the overtime many of them are yearly bringing in six figures and they still want more benefits, perks, and less work hours. Go figure...
                        ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                        IN MARE IN COELO

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
                          AJ - did you say your guys work for less than $50k? Up heah on the shoht seacoast our LE guys usually start at $65-70k. After a few years and the overtime many of them are yearly bringing in six figures and they still want more benefits, perks, and less work hours. Go figure...
                          Well, keep in mind the local CoL.

                          You can buy a 3-1.5-1 tract home for $45,000.

                          A nice 3-2 apt rents for $600 a month plus utilities.

                          Gas is below $2.

                          So a buck goes further here. Plus there is ample opportunities for overtime. Sometimes we can't avoid it, in fact.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                          • #28
                            When this sort of discussion comes up I think about Henry Ford paying more for his people to work on his production lines. He said something to the effect who will buy the product if there is not enough pay to support buying it.

                            Again, if people are slowly put out of work by automation, then who will the automated businesses serve? Robots donít need to buy things.

                            So it seems to me, that if we automate everything to keep production costs down, but there is no consumer in mass able to buy the product, what is the purpose?

                            There must be enough consumers able to pay or even automated businesses will fail.

                            So at that point when automated businesses begin to fail regularly for lack of buyers, will the business owners demand that the government offer a guaranteed income so that there will be a market for their product?

                            A basic income is being discussed and experimented with overseas.
                            http://www.fastcoexist.com/3056339/s...ome-referendum
                            Indeed, conservatives and libertarians in the U.S. sometimes support basic income for that very reason. They see it replacing other benefits and giving more autonomy for people to make their own decisions. Under the Swiss proposal, though, the income would be additive mostly. About three-quarters of the $200 billion annual cost would come from new taxes.
                            If it is true that 50% of the population is supporting the other 50% then what is the break point before there is a demand for a guaranteed income? And yes, if this becomes a world-wide movement then business will have no choice but to pay higher taxes to provide themselves a market for their products.
                            Homo homini lupus

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              Public employees pay taxes, so they are a lessened burden at least.

                              Private sector jobs are the only hope for a nation.
                              I am also a government employee. But I understand that with the way we are going there will soon be nothing but public employees and welfare recipients, and that is not sustainable.
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                                If robots can do these sort of soul destroying repetitive jobs it's immoral to use humans.
                                What is needed is to create more useful and fulfilling jobs and see that people are properly trained and educated to do them. Unfortunately in a free market private enterprise economy this will eventually happen but it does not happen painlessly or quickly
                                You make false assumptions. Rather ask:

                                1. Are the "workers" happy where they are?

                                2. Are the "workers" capable of retraining?

                                3. Are the "workers" "institutionalized"?

                                Not all of humanity is geared up for "advanced training". In fact, it has been my experience that many "workers" are already past their capabilities.

                                GG
                                "The will of a section rooted in self interest, should not outweigh the vital interests of a whole people." -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain-

                                "Fanatics of any sort are dangerous." -GG-

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