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Part 2 - Faith and Guns

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  • Part 2 - Faith and Guns

    I opined on the first, I felt duty bound to watch and opine on the second.



    For their second documentary, PBS covered a conservative Christian who is also strongly anti-gun. I am pro gun and was not overly convinced by the arguments but I still appreciated the town hall. I really think that the throngs of screaming hate based protestors should watch both this town hall and the previous to get an idea on the proper model for resolving differences. I disagree with the anti-gun Christians but watching a dialogue without sandbags full of hatred was quite refreshing. That said, these are my thoughts on some of their talking points.

    First, it is always supposed to be a hallmark of liberalism that matters of national policy should be argued from reason and not faith. If Jesus is not to be invoked for the sake of pro life politics, then neither should he be invoked for the sake of anti gun politics. America is a nation of many faiths and no faith. Therefore a person seeking to impose a voiding of second amendment rights because "what would Jesus do" is in effect imposing his religious beliefs on individuals who do not share such beliefs.

    Second, I was incredibly creeped out when someone said words to the effect that God was a higher power than the second amendment. I am a conservative Christian, but make no mistake I am also a student of history and bad things happen when people start claiming divine authority. Here we have a person basically saying "There is a power greater than American law and the law should be twisted to suit him. Also, I know what this greater power is thinking so the law should be twisted as I see fit."

    NO.

    We have a group of terrorists in the Middle East with the exact same mindset and although the anti-gun activists are somewhat more benign, that is a dangerous rationalization.

    As a Christian I believe in a greater power. But I also NEVER EVER claim to speak for that power or interpret his will. That is damned dangerous territory (literally, if you believe the Bible). When I teach my kids I am always very careful to explain that what I am teaching is my INTERPRETATION and you can go two blocks down and find a theologian with an entirely different interpretation. Law should never be based on theological interpretation. This is why even though I am pro life you will never hear me cite the Bible in a pro life argument. I argue on the merits of biology, not my spiritual interpretations.

    Now, this is definitely a conversation we should be having in our churches. I have had this conversation with my students. There should be a dialogue between Christians on whether or not one can be a Christian, and carry a firearm. But that needs to be a dialogue within the church with decisions made by individual members. Such an argument should not be brought to the level of state and national government. Our Constitution dictates the right to bear arms. Let Christians as individuals decide whether or not it is Christian to exercise that right. They should not impose a theologically based decision upon the entire country.

    As for whether or not you can be a Christian and "love thy neighbor" my short answer is "yes". One counterpoint often brought up by pro second amendment Christians is that it is an act of compassion to use force against a person endangering an innocent life. To date I have yet to hear a good rebuttal to that argument, just a rejection of it.

    Another point I found a bit obnoxious was the argument that people who own guns are living in fear and the Bible commands us not to live in fear. That, to me, seemed to be a very carefully phrased schoolyard taunt. "What are you, some kind of pansy? Tough guys don't need guns." And I would love to see this theologian's reaction when I said "In point of fact, yes, yes I am. Recognizing that I am made in the image of Dilbert, I recognize that I am about as much of a courageous badass as Private Griff.



    And this is precise the reason why I am pro second amendment. Because I know that I would suck in a fight and have neither the courage nor acumen for fancy disarming moves."

    In closing I will point out that one curiosity of the whole gun debate in general is how everyone remains so focused on disarming law abiding citizens. Here's a lesson from Christian history: when Christians were under persecution, they often succeeded by converting their persecutors. They didn't go around to people who weren't engaged in anti Christian violence and lecture them, they converted the people who were trying to kill them.

    In the great gun debate everyone is zeroed in on trying to convince law abiding gun owners to give up their weapons, convinced that THIS will make us safer. Here's a thought: how about convincing dangerous gangster to give up THEIR guns? Instead of spending your time in the house of John Q. Payshistaxesandneverbothersanyone, why don't you embrace the ideology of not living in fear and confront the likes of MS13. Convince them to renounce violence. It's not an impossible mission. Christians of history can tell you that anyone, even Romans, can be turned from a life of violence. Because here's the thing: people carry guns for 3 reasons: 1. Hunting 2. Self Defense and 3. Crime. We'll ignore hunters for the moment as they tend to fall in both category 1 and 2 anyway. But category 2 will always refuse to give up their guns as long as category 3 exists. So take you social activism and turn category 3 away from gun violence. Then category 2 won't feel the need to be armed and you might just kill 2 birds with 1 stone. But as long as the self defense demographic is the only one being pressured to disarm, good luck.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

  • #2
    Beautifully put.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      PBS, the taxpayer's supported, privately funded programs, propaganda outlet of the Progressives. It has been that way ever since it became available on the airwaves.

      Faith and Guns, no surprise of the surrender your guns theme of the latest offering.
      “Breaking News,”

      “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
        PBS, the taxpayer's supported, privately funded programs, propaganda outlet of the Progressives.
        God bless America and PBS .
        The only channel watchable in your country.

        But yesss , i forgot it :Ken Burns is a dangerous leftist,of course .
        All what he has made with PBS is propaganda , of course..
        That rug really tied the room together

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, I figured I might as well watch... Holy Rollers have a voice too.

          "I don't trust myself!"
          Here we have an honest start to the argument. He can't trust himself with a gun... so, I guess he can't trust anyone else with one either.
          Here we go...

          "I own 2 guns, no bullets."
          Huh?

          "It is a problem of sin, not of guns."
          Interesting.

          Jeez.... that one jerk sitting there in a T-shirt and a bandanna on his head, everyone else took the trouble to put a suit on... guess he didn't really give much of a damn.

          Huh, look at all the DC cops with assault rifles. Okay for some, but not for the peons...

          "Own the problem"??? oh just STFU!

          Lying about statistics, great. Are they knocking the definition of "mass shootings" down to 2 people getting clipped. AND the moderator has taken a side right from the start.

          An echo-chamber, one or two are pro 2nd amendment, basically an echo-chamber.

          This killed it for me-
          "The bible teaches us that the Heart is wicked and deceitful above all other things.... we have no goodness of our own..."

          And that was only 14 minutes into this.

          Need I say more?
          Buh-bye, all you sky-pilots, go tend to your sheeple.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
            PBS, the taxpayer's supported, privately funded programs, propaganda outlet of the Progressives. It has been that way ever since it became available on the airwaves.

            Faith and Guns, no surprise of the surrender your guns theme of the latest offering.
            Liberals, progressives and gays oh my! Heaven knows that programs like "Cosmos" are all part of the greater socialist conspiracy.
            Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

            Initiated Chief Petty Officer
            Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
              God bless America and PBS .
              The only channel watchable in your country.

              But yesss , i forgot it :Ken Burns is a dangerous leftist,of course .
              All what he has made with PBS is propaganda , of course..
              I've enjoyed countless PBS' offerings over the years, and I've even donated to them as well, but I do have a problem with a government funding what's essentially an opinion piece. Should government as an institution -- Federal, state, or local -- be trying to drive public opinion? Perhaps this is a gray area, but it's definitely murky.
              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                God bless America and PBS .
                The only channel watchable in your country.
                Wrong again. There's NASA TV, The Science Channel, National Geographic, and many other worthwhile programs.

                There's good shows if you look for them.

                And as far as guns and God goes I'm armed and I believe. Also I'm quite addicted to Aikido. But when a 6'8 300lb gorilla comes at me I'm gonna slap leather.
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                  I've enjoyed countless PBS' offerings over the years, and I've even donated to them as well, but I do have a problem with a government funding what's essentially an opinion piece. Should government as an institution -- Federal, state, or local -- be trying to drive public opinion? Perhaps this is a gray area, but it's definitely murky.
                  I was under the impression all along that the government funded PBS because private contributions are not enough to cover all of the costs.

                  Government is supposed to fund things like this. It also funds much of the art program, so that must be politically tainted as well.

                  And I know for an absolute fact that series such as Downton Abbey and others are evil, Left Wing brain washing propaganda aimed at the lemmings and the gerbils.

                  Beam me up, Scotty. This place is a wasteland.
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                    Wrong again. There's NASA TV, The Science Channel, National Geographic, and many other worthwhile programs.

                    There's good shows if you look for them.

                    And as far as guns and God goes I'm armed and I believe. Also I'm quite addicted to Aikido. But when a 6'8 300lb gorilla comes at me I'm gonna slap leather.
                    There is also the Smithsonian channel, my current favorite.

                    Be sure and say "god bless you" just before you kill someone. It will make them feel so much better.
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      There is also the Smithsonian channel, my current favorite.

                      Be sure and say "god bless you" just before you kill someone. It will make them feel so much better.
                      I'm 55 and have yet to shoot someone. Lets see, from age 8 I've possessed firearms and have never pulled a trigger in anger. So why don't you get off your high throne and quit judging people...
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Well...bless your heart..."

                        I have a distinct advantage over Christians with guns - I don't stop to pray for guidance.

                        One of my civilian CCL instructors kept telling me to remember to yell "GUN!" as I raised my weapon, until I pointed out that A) I'm not a police officer, B) there is no one else to warn, and C) the perp has to take his chances without any hints from me, since he is inside my home illegally to begin with and it doesn't matter if I see a gun or not. I'm allowed to presume the worst and react accordingly.

                        I passed the course.

                        "Hi there..."

                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          "Well...bless your heart..."

                          I have a distinct advantage over Christians with guns - I don't stop to pray for guidance.

                          One of my civilian CCL instructors kept telling me to remember to yell "GUN!" as I raised my weapon, until I pointed out that A) I'm not a police officer, B) there is no one else to warn, and C) the perp has to take his chances without any hints from me, since he is inside my home illegally to begin with and it doesn't matter if I see a gun or not. I'm allowed to presume the worst and react accordingly.

                          I passed the course.

                          "Hi there..."

                          There you go with the ignorant, biased blather. If someone breaks into my house I'm not going to get on my knees and pray, maybe afterwards I'll pray for the poor sucker...
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                            There you go with the ignorant, biased blather. If someone breaks into my house I'm not going to get on my knees and pray, maybe afterwards I'll pray for the poor sucker...
                            Tsk...tsk...

                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Before we get too deep into religious warfare let's remember this is an issue that has people of religion on both sides. There is no "church position" on gun ownership. The religious people on this program were espousing anti gun beliefs directed against other religious people with the opposite opinion. So going after people of religion in general isn't a good call. You'll be alienating the half that agrees with you. Christianity isn't pro or anti gun. It depends on the person.
                              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                              Comment

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