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  • #31
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    We have been moving towards people protecting people and not patronising women. Perhaps by 2150 the USA will have caught up
    Actually, our laws and police procedures regarding sexual assault and domestic abuse are highly regarded by, and are being copied by, the UK. I have been on two training missions to GB as part of the IACP exchange program attempting to help raise UK police's abilities in those regards. You are still sadly behind the times.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
      And you can judge a man by the state of his shoes.
      I remember those days. That was back in the era when the surface appearance was all that mattered. So long as a man kept his yard mowed, his gutters hung straight, a fresh crease in his pants, and a bright shine on his wingtips, it didn't matter that he beat his wife, molested his kids, or helped lynch colored folks.

      In short, it was an era of lies, diminished value of life, and hypocrisy.

      I went to school with a kid who limped in from a fresh beating every couple days. No teacher or school admin said a word. But when he ran away, they reported him as truant.

      Back then, people condoned horror through silence.

      There were a few aspects that had some merit, but it was just as rotten and corrupt back then as it is today, except that society placed value upon appearance and the ugly bits were carefully left in dark corners. Today its gone too far in the other direction, but at least people are going to jail for abuse, molestation, and rape.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        You start with something similar to the "Broken window" and "Graffiti" laws / methodology.

        That is, on dress and appearance you start a publicity campaign, like the ones against smoking, etc., where it makes it obvious to the public that telling someone that sagging your pants is expected and that behavior is not acceptable.
        Or, have a National Regret Your Tattoo day, followed by commercials that show all the negatives of having them. That would be in contrast to the current crop of shows where "artists" show off their work on television.
        The idea is to change public perception and attach stigma to poor dress and being sleeved with tattoos.

        You don't make it illegal, you make it immoral.

        Same thing with HOA's. Start publicizing the short comings of these. How they don't raise the value of a home much (they actually don't. They increase it about 4 to 6% over non-HOA homes according to numerous studies), how the fees often exceed the increase in value of the home leading to negative equity (ie., an equity loss).
        People informed will stop wanting them and then many HOA's will end. Sure, there will still be some and that's fine for those really wanting them.

        Eliminate multiculturalism by ending its being taught in schools and encouraged by government. That means students learn American history, American language, and are given American values (whatever those are deemed to be).
        You want to wear a kilt or traditional African garb every day and to work? Fine, but don't get all butt hurt when people tell you you're weird or the boss says it's unacceptable attire for business.
        No more learning Black or Hispanic, or whatever group history. You learn American history through 12th grade. And, it's taught such to instill a pride in your country and fellow citizens.

        Eliminate much of the gender equity thing. Allow clubs and such that are men or women only. The idea that every business, club, whatever has to accept both men and women is stupid. Race is a different issue here.
        Both genders need time away from the other where they can be themselves rather than a guarded public persona.
        Trying to eliminate all differences in gender will end up being a train wreck.

        That's a start.
        So you get to pick what's OK for everyone. Interesting. How about some else gets to pick what's OK?

        Seems very Nanny state to me.
        “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
        “To talk of many things:
        Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
        Of cabbages—and kings—
        And why the sea is boiling hot—
        And whether pigs have wings.”
        ― Lewis Carroll

        Comment


        • #34
          I remeber always being outside playing pickup sports with my friends. Playing pickup games of baseball on the weekends brings up great memories. In high school I was always looking for pickup games of baketball. I didnt want to be inside as kid.
          For those who know what Sanka is check out this link.

          https://youtu.be/0Swzvm-gXHg

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
            So you get to pick what's OK for everyone. Interesting. How about some else gets to pick what's OK?

            Seems very Nanny state to me.
            That's what's happening now, but from the Progressive side of things. To give an example, gay marriage and the whole LGBT agenda has been pushed on the public by a handful of like-minded judges and courts. Those pushing it tried a popular vote. They were turned down virtually every time they put stuff on the ballot.
            Now we're debating over who should get to use what public bathroom.

            That's one example. Common Core? How about illegal immigration? Multiculturalism is a fact in most public schools. Now Social and Economic Justice using the underlying theory of Critical Pedagogy is becoming mainstream.

            The nanny state is already here. It will self destruct in 50 to 75 years at the most, but in the meantime, like everywhere else the Left has gotten power it will cripple the society afflicted with it before it does.

            All I am suggesting is a media / advertising / public awareness campaign. No changes in law are necessary, just a change in people's minds.

            Look at tobacco today. The same nanny state has made social pariahs out of smokers. Now, that same nanny state and many of the same advocates of stopping smoking are pushing another smoked product: Marijuana. How insane is that?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              I remember those days. That was back in the era when the surface appearance was all that mattered. So long as a man kept his yard mowed, his gutters hung straight, a fresh crease in his pants, and a bright shine on his wingtips, it didn't matter that he beat his wife, molested his kids, or helped lynch colored folks.

              In short, it was an era of lies, diminished value of life, and hypocrisy.

              I went to school with a kid who limped in from a fresh beating every couple days. No teacher or school admin said a word. But when he ran away, they reported him as truant.

              Back then, people condoned horror through silence.

              There were a few aspects that had some merit, but it was just as rotten and corrupt back then as it is today, except that society placed value upon appearance and the ugly bits were carefully left in dark corners. Today its gone too far in the other direction, but at least people are going to jail for abuse, molestation, and rape.
              Hang on. We're talking FIRST Impressions here, not an in-depth summary of a man's character: that came later upon further acquaintance.

              Highly polished shoes at least indicated pride in appearance and,therefore a
              degree of self-respect. No matter if the footwear was worn and down-at-heal ,a gloss on the leather revealed that the man was trying to make the best of his circumstances.
              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
              Samuel Johnson.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                You start with something similar to the "Broken window" and "Graffiti" laws / methodology.

                That is, on dress and appearance you start a publicity campaign, like the ones against smoking, etc., where it makes it obvious to the public that telling someone that sagging your pants is expected and that behavior is not acceptable.
                Or, have a National Regret Your Tattoo day, followed by commercials that show all the negatives of having them. That would be in contrast to the current crop of shows where "artists" show off their work on television.
                The idea is to change public perception and attach stigma to poor dress and being sleeved with tattoos.

                You don't make it illegal, you make it immoral.

                Same thing with HOA's. Start publicizing the short comings of these. How they don't raise the value of a home much (they actually don't. They increase it about 4 to 6% over non-HOA homes according to numerous studies), how the fees often exceed the increase in value of the home leading to negative equity (ie., an equity loss).
                People informed will stop wanting them and then many HOA's will end. Sure, there will still be some and that's fine for those really wanting them.

                Eliminate multiculturalism by ending its being taught in schools and encouraged by government. That means students learn American history, American language, and are given American values (whatever those are deemed to be).
                You want to wear a kilt or traditional African garb every day and to work? Fine, but don't get all butt hurt when people tell you you're weird or the boss says it's unacceptable attire for business.
                No more learning Black or Hispanic, or whatever group history. You learn American history through 12th grade. And, it's taught such to instill a pride in your country and fellow citizens.

                Eliminate much of the gender equity thing. Allow clubs and such that are men or women only. The idea that every business, club, whatever has to accept both men and women is stupid. Race is a different issue here.
                Both genders need time away from the other where they can be themselves rather than a guarded public persona.
                Trying to eliminate all differences in gender will end up being a train wreck.

                That's a start.
                So you want a politicised education system that teaches pride in the nation? How exactly do you teach pride in the centuries of slavery, racism and discrimination or gender discrimination, atrocities, etc? Why not an education which teaches facts?

                By the way why are or should tattoos be immoral?
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  You completely missed the point, which is that morals, ethics and principles do NOT lead to bad societal habits. Lack of them does. If you have not been taught courtesy to all, then things like racism and suppression do not seem harmful. If you have not been taught to be honorable, then lying and stealing and other things do not seem "wrong", and if you have no work ethic instilled in you, then living your life on welfare seems like a reasonable way to live.

                  You can, in fact, teach children to act and behave responsibly in all aspects of their lives, in fact, it is the duty of parents to do so, not abandon that to schools and general society.

                  My generation may have been one of the last to be raised with those principles firmly imbedded, since we were the children of the Greatest Generation and they lived and died by those principles.

                  Do not make the mistake of equating ethics and morals with societal ills - they are not one and the same. They are polar opposites, the lack of the former resulting in the latter.
                  So why didn't yous teach all the new generations not part of the good old times these things? In any case, I think you missed the point.
                  Wisdom is personal

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    That's what's happening now, but from the Progressive side of things. To give an example, gay marriage and the whole LGBT agenda has been pushed on the public by a handful of like-minded judges and courts. Those pushing it tried a popular vote. They were turned down virtually every time they put stuff on the ballot.
                    Now we're debating over who should get to use what public bathroom.

                    That's one example. Common Core? How about illegal immigration? Multiculturalism is a fact in most public schools. Now Social and Economic Justice using the underlying theory of Critical Pedagogy is becoming mainstream.

                    The nanny state is already here. It will self destruct in 50 to 75 years at the most, but in the meantime, like everywhere else the Left has gotten power it will cripple the society afflicted with it before it does.

                    All I am suggesting is a media / advertising / public awareness campaign. No changes in law are necessary, just a change in people's minds.

                    Look at tobacco today. The same nanny state has made social pariahs out of smokers. Now, that same nanny state and many of the same advocates of stopping smoking are pushing another smoked product: Marijuana. How insane is that?
                    Media campaign: I understand that, my question is on the topics you picked and labeled 'Immoral'. Really, sagging pants is immoral? Tattoo's are immoral? Of all the things you could list you pick those two. Things that are none of governments business, not any one else's really, yet they need to go.

                    Yes, multiculturalism it in schools, as it should be. It reflects the country and the fact that when they are grown that is the world they will live in. Ignoring it and pretending the world does not exist is silly.

                    Please explain how most of are States are controlled by the right and yet Education, which is almost entirely controlled by the States, seems out of control?

                    Look at your states education curriculum and see where it originates and you'll see that it is NOT from the Feds.
                    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                    “To talk of many things:
                    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                    Of cabbages—and kings—
                    And why the sea is boiling hot—
                    And whether pigs have wings.”
                    ― Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                      Media campaign: I understand that, my question is on the topics you picked and labeled 'Immoral'. Really, sagging pants is immoral? Tattoo's are immoral? Of all the things you could list you pick those two. Things that are none of governments business, not any one else's really, yet they need to go.
                      You paint it that way, yes. You make a public stigma out of it, like cigarette smoking has been made. That is, you sag you end up taking so much criticism from people you know that you stop. You have tattoos you are self conscious about them and try your damnest to cover them up and make sure nobody knows you have them.
                      Smoking really isn't the government's business either, but they're up to their eyeballs in stigmatizing that.


                      Yes, multiculturalism it in schools, as it should be. It reflects the country and the fact that when they are grown that is the world they will live in. Ignoring it and pretending the world does not exist is silly.

                      Please explain how most of are States are controlled by the right and yet Education, which is almost entirely controlled by the States, seems out of control?

                      Look at your states education curriculum and see where it originates and you'll see that it is NOT from the Feds.
                      It starts with a combination of what teachers are being taught at colleges of education today, extends to federal policy on education (which is a major reason for the decline in US public schools... Thanks a bunch Carter you useless puss bag), and on into local school systems where frequently those choosing and reviewing curricula, textbooks, and other parts of the school system don't have a clue, or particularly care, what they're looking at.

                      Even in states where the Right controls the politics, frequently the Left is able to control what goes on in the classrooms.
                      I'll use as an example, the Tucson Unified School District. They started something called "Raza Studies" about 10 years ago. It was radical Leftist, Communist, racist, indoctrination and that's accurate. I know, because I played a significant part in bringing it to the attention of Conservative journalists in the state.
                      It used the process called Critical Pedagogy as its technique. The bibliography and reading list was a who's who of radical Leftist literature. There was no balance. The teachers regularly attended teaching conferences where the most radical Leftist professors of education in the US showed up to indoctrinate them. The teachers were also carefully selected and vetted to make sure they were good little radicals.

                      When the program was made public, it got slammed to the point the state even legislated it out of existence. Those in the program went to court and shopped judges. In the end the program survived and today it's back were it was now far more careful not to reveal itself to the public like the first time around.
                      For example, they cleaned up all their website stuff to exclude all the radical Leftist material that was originally there. The people in the program were not computer security savvy and originally, almost gleefully, put all sorts of stuff up that was great ammunition for me, and then others, to slam their program.

                      Parents in the TUSD don't care and those that can afford it, put their kids in private schools because the TUSD is so bad at educating them. Far more value is put on producing good little radicals than educated graduates. And, it isn't just that one program any more either.

                      In those terms, you eliminate the current Common Core history and social studies sections entirely and refocus it on a more positive and narrow study of American history.
                      For example, this book would not be used as a text for teaching American history.

                      http://drrichswier.com/2014/08/08/co...united-states/

                      Or a Leftist view:

                      http://www.theimaginativeconservativ...-strawman.html

                      For example, controversies erupted recently in the Newburgh, New York school district and in Arizona about books deemed pornographic by conservative critics.[4] These books, of course, were chosen by the districts themselves and were not mandated, or even suggested, by the Common Core Standards. Also in Arizona, conservative critics successfully fought the introduction of a Mexican-American Studies curriculum for the Tucson school district, arguing that it promoted negative views of the United States and of white people.
                      Note, that here they're talking about the program I helped to take down. I don't recall the "pornographic" books off hand, but there were numerous ones that were vulgar, racist, hate filled, and otherwise written in a manner that I'd say almost anyone would deem unacceptable as a high school text on a curricula.
                      Note also the misnomer: The program at the time it was fought over was called Raza Studies. The people running the program changed it to Mexican-American / Hispanic-American studies only after the firestorm of protest against it erupted.
                      That is, wanted to call it Raza Studies but were forced to change the name to try and hide the real program objectives.

                      As for Zinn's book it's gotten quite popular as one to use in public education. Read it sometime. It's so badly skewed, to the point it's mostly propaganda rather than history.

                      Even the Left admits it (article cited above):

                      The little content that history and social studies teachers do receive tends to be colored by a liberal worldview. Howard Zinn’s infamous A People’s History of the United States, first published in 1980, remains the nation’s best-selling survey textbook, selling about 125,000 copies each year.[6] Zinn, a self-proclaimed radical, has heavily influenced many of today’s textbooks.[7] His work is infused with a clear theme: America is a corrupt nation founded upon the lie of equal opportunity and designed in reality to empower the wealthy. On numerous occasions, Zinn has stated that the world would be a much better place if the United States had never existed.[8] Following Zinn, radical activists such as former domestic terrorist Bill Ayers have promoted educational reforms aimed at indoctrinating children in an effort to overthrow the existing social order in favor of a system built on a Left-wing version of “social justice.”
                      The article goes on to excuse this, but that's neither here nor there.

                      One way many schools keep this in classrooms today is by keeping the public and parents out of those classrooms. No homework. No taking textbooks home. No parents or others allowed to observe classroom activity. By keeping the education process as secret as possible those running these programs can do as they please, and that's often contrary to what parents or the public at large would agree with.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        [FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]Looks like we have an addition to Godwin's Law - we'll call it Rimmer's Law. Doesn't take long for someone to distract the thread from the point about our sense of honor and our ethical and moral values and divert it to things like slavery and all the rest. An entire nation condemned for the practices of the minority...

                        And we could certainly better our standards without returning to the old abusive things that you seem so intent on....
                        In a thread full of great posts (the longer ones, mostly, the 2-line snipes at requested explanations are just Troll-dung) that one really stood out for me.

                        It is sad and silly to see that so many people say that in order to have or do ANYTHING that worked so well at any point on the past would require us to all be wife-beating racist dogmatic bastards, each and every one of us, we wouldn't have any choice in the matter.
                        Thay can't believe that tripe, hell, all of that was deeply unpopular even then.

                        And now they tell us that anyone that does not want to make it easier for Predators to get at our kids is just all evil and uncaring... it is an incredibly hateful, evil and vicious philosophy, but there is an explanation for it--




                        Yup, it was all a con-game, and has been for the last 100,000 years.

                        "Languisites"... I like that!
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

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