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No longer "felon," "convict," or "offender"

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  • #31
    Another....misleading, yes.....interesting, no.

    From your newest misleading link:

    Serious misdemeanors last year made up the largest single category of conduct waivers, which excuse crimes ranging from armed robbery to, in the case of the Marine Corps, one-time marijuana use.

    Something else that you might not be aware of; driving 20+ mph above the speed limit in many states is a felony offense.
    "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

    Comment


    • #32
      No I said we didn't use the courts to recruit . There is a myth that in the early years of WW1 a judge would offer those found guilty of many offences the choice of going to jail or into the army but in fact this was not permitted. What did sometimes happen was that before sentence the defence would make it known that the guilty man was intending to enlist and the judge could take this into account when sentencing and might impose a suspended sentence that would cease to be suspended if the man did not enlist but he could not offer the choice in the first place. Once conscription came in in 1916 the whole matter became irrelevant as voluntary enlistment ceased. In WW2 conscription began in 1939 so again it wasn't an issue

      Many ex convicts doubtless enlisted and given the lack of any mechanical let alone electronic record keeping system the recruiters would usually have no way of knowing if the man had a criminal record or not. Indeed they had no way of knowing if the name the man gave when he enlisted was genuine, there were no id cards and very few owned a passport or had a copy of their birth certificate so no way to check. Whilst joining up with a false name was technically an offence there is no record of anyone being punished for it although some service records have been annotated with the real name so the truth did sometimes come out. However joining up under an assumed name one jump ahead of the law did happen (but so also did one jump ahead of a father with a shot gun, a husband with a horse whip, a debt collector, a bookie's enforcer or a bigamous wife). Men who wanted to break an apprenticeship might also join under a false name. There is certainly many a headstone in the cemeteries in France that has a different name to the man who is lying under it and some of those will be fugitives from justice. Inevitably there will be many who had done time.

      AFAIK the 1999 scheme you linked to sank like a stone or at best was little used. I've never heard of it. There have long been modern day Col Blimps who will utter such things as "give em a taste of National Service - do em good" but the forces have usually been opposed to it and do not see themselves as social workers or probation officers.
      Last edited by MarkV; 06 May 16, 11:22.
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
        http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-the-workplace

        Interesting....

        US military is a pretty big employer and they find that felons perform favourably against personnel with clean records.
        This is completely, absolutely, wrong.

        First, the US military will only take someone with a felony if it is a single occurrence, of the least severity, did not involve violence, a weapon, drugs, or was a case of domestic violence. That makes it a pretty short list.
        Second, the recruiter has to get the person a waiver. That pretty much excludes anyone with a felony from service except typically in the Army and only if the Army is desperate.

        Next, the article conflates criminal record with "felony." The two are not mutually inclusive. Misdemeanors appear on criminal records too.

        Since the bulk of felons, that is serious offenders, have less than a high school education, or obtained a GED in prison (usually a requirement these days as part of their programming while incarcerated if they don't possess one). Most would do extremely poorly on the ASVAB test limiting their options assuming they even get the minimum score for the service they applied for. Without a GED the military generally won't take someone unless they have scored very well on the ASVAB as an initial substitute.
        Typically, there are less than 1000 felons in total serving in the US military in a given year, the bulk of those being in the Army and Marines. The Navy and Air Force usually number less than 50 total between them.

        Then there's the civilian world. The same lack of education, intellect, and ability to follow rules will weigh against most felons. Top that off that they are almost always on some sort of supervised release program that usually lasts years. This means their parole officer or other law enforcement will show up at their work periodically to see what they're doing, interview the employer, etc. They are frequently scheduled for things like meetings with their case worker, drug or alcohol programs, etc. These interfere with employment and few employers are willing to put up with these people "invading" their business asking questions.
        Then we can throw in that many employers require bonding or background checks because of the sort of work they do. Maintenance and service companies won't hire such a person on the basis of demonstrated unreliability. They don't want to risk an ex-felon committing another crime against a customer whose home is being serviced. Security guard, bank workers, real estate, etc., all require clean records and often bonding.

        So, there is little reason to hire felons being released from prison. If anything, these people should replace illegal immigrants in the sort of jobs they typically do.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          No I said we didn't use the courts to recruit . There is a myth that in the early years of
          That myth is alive and well over here too, probably originated in Hollywood and spread by internet forums like this.

          Some 'new' service members tend tell lively tales to be accepted into their immediate unit. We also don't recruit from the courts.

          Well, a judge or prosecutor can do whatever they please (within the limits of the law for their jurisdiction), but -- that doesn't mean the military branches are required to accept such people and -- they don't.

          If you read the link, there are various links to each service's orders.

          http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...joinprison.htm

          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          AFAIK the 1999 scheme you linked to sank like a stone or at best was little used. I've never heard of it. There have long been modern day Col Blimps who will utter such things as "give em a taste of National Service - do em good" but the forces have usually been opposed to it and do not see themselves as social workers or probation officers.
          I'm guessing if it did go into effect, it quickly went away.

          That being said, it is a lot easier of a British Col Blimp to do this than a Col Smith in the American services. You guys have an awesome Regimental chain of command that works very well in just about all cases but it leaves the door open for some extremely strange things to happen.
          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

          Comment


          • #35
            I met one guy in the Navy in 27 years that had actually been given that choice by a judge. His name was Windsor but everyone called him "Keg." Don't remember his first name. He was a Hull Tech (HT), that is welder / plumber.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
              http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-the-workplace

              Interesting....

              US military is a pretty big employer and they find that felons perform favourably against personnel with clean records.
              Not buying it. I made E-6 in under 6 years because I perform. Knock on wood, but my record is impeccable.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                I met one guy in the Navy in 27 years that had actually been given that choice by a judge. His name was Windsor but everyone called him "Keg." Don't remember his first name. He was a Hull Tech (HT), that is welder / plumber.
                Or did he just tell that story?
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Field Marshal William Slim wrote of a soldier in his platoon in WW1 who was always in disciplinary trouble and escaped military prison only narrowly (mainly because the battalion commander reckoned it would be a soft option compared with continuing to serve at the front and the man was reliable in action). After the armistice Slim was walking down a London street when a car came speeding round the corner and screeched to a halt beside him. The driver leaned out and said "how are you doing Sir?" it was the same old sweat obviously now demobed. "Fine thank you" said Slim and how are you these days?" "Can't complain but 'fraid I can't stop" said the driver and roared off just as a police car came round the corner its bell clanging away. Slim's old soldier had gone back to his old civie street business of smash and grab raiding.
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
                    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-the-workplace

                    Interesting....

                    US military is a pretty big employer and they find that felons perform favourably against personnel with clean records.
                    All that proves is that if an article is published someone will believe it.
                    My worst jump story:
                    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                    No lie.

                    ~
                    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      I met one guy in the Navy in 27 years that had actually been given that choice by a judge. His name was Windsor but everyone called him "Keg." Don't remember his first name. He was a Hull Tech (HT), that is welder / plumber.
                      They stopped doing that for the most part in the mid 70s'. Once found out he military didn't want that trash and put a BIG stop to it.
                      My worst jump story:
                      My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                      As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                      No lie.

                      ~
                      "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                      -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        This is completely, absolutely, wrong.

                        First, the US military will only take someone with a felony if it is a single occurrence, of the least severity, did not involve violence, a weapon, drugs, or was a case of domestic violence. That makes it a pretty short list.
                        Second, the recruiter has to get the person a waiver. That pretty much excludes anyone with a felony from service except typically in the Army and only if the Army is desperate.

                        Next, the article conflates criminal record with "felony." The two are not mutually inclusive. Misdemeanors appear on criminal records too.

                        Since the bulk of felons, that is serious offenders, have less than a high school education, or obtained a GED in prison (usually a requirement these days as part of their programming while incarcerated if they don't possess one). Most would do extremely poorly on the ASVAB test limiting their options assuming they even get the minimum score for the service they applied for. Without a GED the military generally won't take someone unless they have scored very well on the ASVAB as an initial substitute.
                        Typically, there are less than 1000 felons in total serving in the US military in a given year, the bulk of those being in the Army and Marines. The Navy and Air Force usually number less than 50 total between them.

                        Then there's the civilian world. The same lack of education, intellect, and ability to follow rules will weigh against most felons. Top that off that they are almost always on some sort of supervised release program that usually lasts years. This means their parole officer or other law enforcement will show up at their work periodically to see what they're doing, interview the employer, etc. They are frequently scheduled for things like meetings with their case worker, drug or alcohol programs, etc. These interfere with employment and few employers are willing to put up with these people "invading" their business asking questions.
                        Then we can throw in that many employers require bonding or background checks because of the sort of work they do. Maintenance and service companies won't hire such a person on the basis of demonstrated unreliability. They don't want to risk an ex-felon committing another crime against a customer whose home is being serviced. Security guard, bank workers, real estate, etc., all require clean records and often bonding.

                        So, there is little reason to hire felons being released from prison. If anything, these people should replace illegal immigrants in the sort of jobs they typically do.
                        Totally agree with both your statements and your idea on their employment.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
                          Not buying it. I made E-6 in under 6 years because I perform. Knock on wood, but my record is impeccable.
                          Same here. Then jumped up to Chief Warrant in two more years through hard work and study, and consistently superior performance at all levels.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Same here. Then jumped up to Chief Warrant in two more years through hard work and study, and consistently superior performance at all levels.
                            I have to make E-7 before I can apply for CWO, but I can take the E-7 exam for LDO purposes next year. I do know people who struggle, but for the most part, the Navy seems to reward people who work hard and stay the course. The only consistent exception being people whose rates are locked up.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
                              I have to make E-7 before I can apply for CWO, but I can take the E-7 exam for LDO purposes next year. I do know people who struggle, but for the most part, the Navy seems to reward people who work hard and stay the course. The only consistent exception being people whose rates are locked up.
                              And you'll make it - I have no doubt.

                              My jump came from getting selected for Physician Assistant School, which came with a Warrant appointment at successful completion. I made E-7 midway through my first year, and was allowed to wear the stripes for all of sixty seconds while my picture was taken before reverting to the status of WOC - Warrant Officer Candidate. Proud moment, nevertheless - that was seven ranks in six years. (I refused OCS in '65 because I wanted to remain in the medical field, my only true area of comfort and expertise. I'm not a combat leader type.)
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                And you'll make it - I have no doubt.

                                My jump came from getting selected for Physician Assistant School, which came with a Warrant appointment at successful completion. I made E-7 midway through my first year, and was allowed to wear the stripes for all of sixty seconds while my picture was taken before reverting to the status of WOC - Warrant Officer Candidate. Proud moment, nevertheless - that was seven ranks in six years. (I refused OCS in '65 because I wanted to remain in the medical field, my only true area of comfort and expertise. I'm not a combat leader type.)
                                Thanks MM! PA School is no joke. I went through college with three friends who wanted to be PAs. I think only one them made it all the way through. I have no idea where I'll end up in the Navy. I'm trained in Security, currently supporting a production unit, and contemplating a cross-rating to a rate that would solidify my future in a production unit supporting the Fleet. I like being around the salty Sailors.

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