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Russian Planes Buzz The USS Donald Cook

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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    If I may pull something out of my bag of Swedish airforce tricks of the Cold War.

    Swedish planes would not just buzz Sovet warships at supersonic speeds, they would try to do so in such a manner that the sonic bang would hit the ship, damaging it and injuring crew. This was at least known, understood and not disapproved of...

    So there is a matter of these things being "games played in the Baltic", and possibly this not being quite what the US forces are used to?

    And then it's a matter of these things clearly being acts of domination. Howwever, they tend to be pulled of by the actually weaker party in any kind of confrontation. The acts of domination are there, including the acceptance of the risks entailed, but it is not a sign of actual dominance...
    That warms my heart...

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    • Originally posted by johns624 View Post
      That warms my heart...
      Really? It was a fairly long time ago, and I feel conflicted by it. It amounted to "out-crazying 'Crazy Ivan" in order to make a fairly dangerous point. But the Soviet pilots and mariners were clearly disgusted by it, which was the intention of course.

      It's kind of the problem if going into a fight where you KNOW you're overmatched according all reasonable metrics. You have to summon up this thing the Japanese have a name for — "sakki" — killing intent. No way of even temporarily intimidating a stronger potential adversary (who still doesn't want to get hurt) without it.

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      • Regardless of the reason, ordered or not, it is still a very dangerous game being played. What happens when the 'other side' decides to one-up the side who just did this? These things can escalate very rapidly. The slightest miscue and it could lead to war. If I was on either side, I would inform my rival that it won't happen again without a response - that being that the plane is shot down.
        "War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
        - Col. David Hackworth

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        • No way of even temporarily intimidating a stronger potential adversary (who still doesn't want to get hurt) without it.
          The psychology of international politics -

          strange how nation states (or zuperpowers as my friend Hawker likes to call them), when it comes down to it - behave just like apes
          Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
            Regardless of the reason, ordered or not, it is still a very dangerous game being played. What happens when the 'other side' decides to one-up the side who just did this? These things can escalate very rapidly. The slightest miscue and it could lead to war. If I was on either side, I would inform my rival that it won't happen again without a response - that being that the plane is shot down.
            Yes, and it's why the stronger side tends to back off and cool it. It usually can afford to.

            My bet is on the Russians reasonably expecting the Americans to complain loudly, but do nothing to actually escalte. Much as Russia did over the Turks downing one of their planes.

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            • Originally posted by DeltaOne View Post
              Regardless of the reason, ordered or not, it is still a very dangerous game being played. What happens when the 'other side' decides to one-up the side who just did this? These things can escalate very rapidly. The slightest miscue and it could lead to war. If I was on either side, I would inform my rival that it won't happen again without a response - that being that the plane is shot down.
              Don, the more I think about it, the more it seems that this was a miscue. I think the pilot intended to make the pass at a less controversial distance but screwed up. A theory at least as valid as any other.
              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                The psychology of international politics -

                strange how nation states (or zuperpowers as my friend Hawker likes to call them), when it comes down to it - behave just like apes
                No apes are bright enough to know when to back off
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                  Really? It was a fairly long time ago, and I feel conflicted by it. It amounted to "out-crazying 'Crazy Ivan" in order to make a fairly dangerous point. But the Soviet pilots and mariners were clearly disgusted by it, which was the intention of course.

                  It's kind of the problem if going into a fight where you KNOW you're overmatched according all reasonable metrics. You have to summon up this thing the Japanese have a name for — "sakki" — killing intent. No way of even temporarily intimidating a stronger potential adversary (who still doesn't want to get hurt) without it.
                  Maybe it's because I grew up in Detroit and am only 5"8" and 155lbs. I sorta lived the same way. You never back down to a bigger opponent (all of them). You might get your ass whupped, but as long as they knew they'd been in a fight, you were good after that.

                  PS- I also liked it because it belies the image of Swedes as being peaceful, just because they were neutral.

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                  • There's old pilots and there's bold pilots. There's no such thing as old bold pilots...
                    Credo quia absurdum.


                    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                    • Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                      PS- I also liked it because it belies the image of Swedes as being peaceful, just because they were neutral.
                      Yes, well, not the Swedish airforce at least.

                      Sweden now since October last year has a new CiC (överbefälhavare, and no it's not technically the king), who is one of these Cold War pilots, Michael Bydén. That's a sign of the times — they've gone and appointed a Swedish armed forces commander who is known to actually like a fight...

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                      • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                        There's old pilots and there's bold pilots. There's no such thing as old bold pilots...
                        Of course that is totally false.

                        Doolittle 97

                        Yeager 93

                        Apollo crews 80's

                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                          Really? It was a fairly long time ago, and I feel conflicted by it. It amounted to "out-crazying 'Crazy Ivan" in order to make a fairly dangerous point. But the Soviet pilots and mariners were clearly disgusted by it, which was the intention of course.

                          It's kind of the problem if going into a fight where you KNOW you're overmatched according all reasonable metrics. You have to summon up this thing the Japanese have a name for — "sakki" — killing intent. No way of even temporarily intimidating a stronger potential adversary (who still doesn't want to get hurt) without it.
                          Yes, gives me a warm feeling as well.
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                          Comment


                          • They are still at it
                            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36177405
                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                              From the BBC article:


                              "The US Air Force has two solutions: either not to fly near our borders or to turn the transponder on for identification."
                              I prefer a third option. Provide our recon a/c with some little friends.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                              Comment


                              • The su24 is quite a big plane. Is it really the ideal aircraft for a close flyby?
                                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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