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What liberals need to understand about the homosexuality debate.

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  • What liberals need to understand about the homosexuality debate.

    This is something I've been meaning to write for awhile and seeing as it is the big topic of the day, I will.

    As this whole bathroom, marriage, service falderal turns into another screaming match I wanted to inject some advice into the mix for the left when it comes to addressing the issues of gay marriage in the Christian community. I will start by saying I have nothing against gay marriage as long as Constitutional principles and procedures are followed and I also think that refusing service to gay people is not a good Christian example. However the left needs to take a step back from the screaming match and understand what is going on and how better they might address it.

    First of all, Christians refusing to service you has nothing to do with hate. The media likes to characterize it as such but it isn't. A Christian isn't refusing to bake your cake because they hate you, they are refusing that cake because they have a deeply held conviction and feel as though doing what you ask would be violating that conviction. Forcing them to make that cake would make them feel very troubled and uncomfortable. And while that makes no sense to you, rest assured it makes sense to them. When you've been brought up in a particular moral culture, breaking those habits can be hard.

    Now, I am all for moving the ball forward, but there is a right way to do it and right now the left has been doing all the wrong things.

    I have been able to move in many different Christian circles as well as other religions including Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims. My ability to maintain cordial relations with people who have in some cases radically different views than mine is largely due to the fact that I don't take offense at every little thing. There's a lot about Catholicism I disagree with. But I don't kick over their icons, I smile and say hello. This is how you start a dialogue.

    Now for the past few years the left has adopted a policy of victory through bullying. The logic seems to be that if you are mean enough, spiteful enough, and angry enough, people see things your way. So far this policy hasn't built many bridges.

    I have been able to change many minds in my interactions on a variety of issues, but I have done so through a slightly different tactic. Namely, I take people to lunch. Conversations over lunch humanize you and the person you are fellowshipping with and really allow you to open up and have influencing conversations. By respecting the other person and earning their respect in return, I can wield far more influence when it comes to a discussion of deeply held beliefs then if I were to start with "You're wrong, evil, and stupid. Think more like me, dammit!"

    Now here's something you need to understand. Christians keep a wary eye out for persecution. History hasn't always been kind to us and even in this day and age there's plenty of places in the world where Christianity is a dangerous faith. There are people who worry persecution could start here.

    So, taking into account these deeply held beliefs and the fact that when you are rebuffed your first resort is lawsuits and boycotts, what you are essentially doing is confirming to these Christians that you are a threat. They respond by building bigger walls, mentally, physically, and legally. The bills you are seeing now are in fact a direct result of these left wing bully tactics which create the concern that you are going to force YOUR morality into their homes. And the louder you howl, the harder you hit, the more you threaten, the more you convince them and their representatives that this action is totally necessary - and the more they are going to do it.

    Getting back to things from my angle. I have had conversations with many a Christian and I can tell you that views toward homosexuality are changing. It takes time, change always does, but it is happening. But the effort I spend getting a Christian to see that polite interaction and business with homosexual individuals is the Christian thing to do can get wiped away really damn fast when you show up with your economic carpet bombing, statewide guilt by association raging, and general hostility. And once you show yourself to be a threat, getting them to relax again is going to be twice as hard.

    You really need to work on the art of calming down and approaching people in a human fashion. You will never scream these people into submission. You can never hole another human being into changing their mind. Christians have put up with some impressive levels of persecution. Your lawsuits and abuse won't break us. Rome tried far worse and by the time the smoke cleared Christianity was the state religion.

    But if you take a moment to calm down and stop stereotyping every baker out there as a hate monger and stop with the bully tactics you might find progress an easier thing to achieve. People listen better when they aren't being threatened. And there are those of us in the Christian community who can be quite a bit more sympathetic when you don't have raging holes leading the debate.

    But we can't have that progress when you deal in threats. Every time you rant, that just reinforces the notion that you are out to get them and the legal protections need to be tougher and stronger.

    If you want to be accepted for who you are you need to earn that by first accepting the other guy for who he is. Only after you get to that point will you have any shot at changing minds.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
    If you want to be accepted for who you are you need to earn that by first accepting the other guy for who he is. Only after you get to that point will you have any shot at changing minds.

    Because the other guy never does anything bad like say that gays are paedophiles, imply that gays are victims of sexual abuse, call gays evil, say that gays will/should burn in hell, say that gays should be prosecuted and jailed/executed for being gay etc etc.......

    What about that guy?

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    • #3
      As it stands right now, LBGT etc., represents a group of people who have made a choice about their sexual practices. There is no "gay gene," at least not yet. Sure other influences since birth may have colored their choices, but they are still choices.

      The second issue I have is with their flaunting of sex and sexuality in public unlike any other segment of the population. There are "Pride" parades. These could be more accurately called Sex parades. We don't see heterosexual or fetish parades celebrating sex. The hookers and strippers don't hold parades in celebration of their sexual activities. But, the LGBT community does.

      If all LGBT really amounts to is simply a selection of sexual choices made by a small minority of the population, why are we going to such lengths to accommodate them at all?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        As it stands right now, LBGT etc., represents a group of people who have made a choice about their sexual practices. There is no "gay gene," at least not yet. Sure other influences since birth may have colored their choices, but they are still choices.

        The second issue I have is with their flaunting of sex and sexuality in public unlike any other segment of the population. There are "Pride" parades. These could be more accurately called Sex parades. We don't see heterosexual or fetish parades celebrating sex. The hookers and strippers don't hold parades in celebration of their sexual activities. But, the LGBT community does.

        If all LGBT really amounts to is simply a selection of sexual choices made by a small minority of the population, why are we going to such lengths to accommodate them at all?
        When did you make your choice to be straight?
        "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
        G.B Shaw

        "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
        Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          As it stands right now, LBGT etc., represents a group of people who have made a choice about their sexual practices. There is no "gay gene," at least not yet. Sure other influences since birth may have colored their choices, but they are still choices.

          The second issue I have is with their flaunting of sex and sexuality in public unlike any other segment of the population. There are "Pride" parades. These could be more accurately called Sex parades. We don't see heterosexual or fetish parades celebrating sex. The hookers and strippers don't hold parades in celebration of their sexual activities. But, the LGBT community does.

          If all LGBT really amounts to is simply a selection of sexual choices made by a small minority of the population, why are we going to such lengths to accommodate them at all?
          Quite awhile ago I was renting a nice apartment in a quiet neighborhood. That is until a couple of guys moved in next door. Then it quickly became intolerable. The late night noise was way over the top. Now I don't care which way someone swings but howling in the middle of the night is just plain rude.

          This couple had a agenda to force acceptance and got utter rejection. The real problem is trying to coerce people and that is bound to fail. I keep hearing that they are oppressed, they ought to go to the middle east and see what true oppression is...

          Bottom line is gay does not mean happy or light hearted anymore, now it seems upset and discontent.

          I went to a prayer rally at a private event that got swarmed by angry, militant gays. They placed wooden blocks with nails under peoples cars, howled and screamed that 'what right did we have to be there' and basically uttered death threats...

          Now did that change our minds? I think not...
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sergio View Post
            When did you make your choice to be straight?
            Wrong question. Is there evidence to support homosexuality as something inborn / genetic? My choice on sexuality is irrelevant here. A sample of 1 is not a statistically valid sample.

            Also, of the four types in LGBT, the T (Transsexual) is clearly and demonstrably a choice. No one is getting genital mutilation and cosmetic surgery to change their gender appearance forced on them nor is it something they were born with. So, why we even tolerate celebration of something that amounts to serious cosmetic surgery and nothing more is beyond me.
            It amounts to the same thing as someone doing this:



            Then expecting everyone to accept his (I think that's a he) choices without negative comments or connotations. Zero difference between the two other than what cosmetic surgery they chose to have.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              Wrong question. Is there evidence to support homosexuality as something inborn / genetic? My choice on sexuality is irrelevant here. A sample of 1 is not a statistically valid sample.
              Yes, there is.

              And it's important because it suggests that all those who suggest that homosexuality is a choice are basically stating they're bisexual - they feel equally attracted to men and women, but just choose the opposite sex.

              After all, if you feel sexual attraction to women but not men, then you didn't have a choice in your sexual orientation.

              Also, of the four types in LGBT, the T (Transsexual) is clearly and demonstrably a choice. No one is getting genital mutilation and cosmetic surgery to change their gender appearance forced on them nor is it something they were born with. So, why we even tolerate celebration of something that amounts to serious cosmetic surgery and nothing more is beyond me.
              That is entirely incorrect. I really don't want to have to keep posting the links to the documentation describing sexual orientation, gender identity, and the research surrounding such issues again. It was posted at least twice the last time we had these issues arise, so you can do a search to find them again.

              And you've said this before, and it was wrong then too. Simply put, someone can be trans without ever having seen a doctor. Full stop. There is literally no requirement for surgery in someone to be transgender. No if, ands, or buts. None. Nadda. Zip.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                As it stands right now, LBGT etc., represents a group of people who have made a choice about their sexual practices. There is no "gay gene," at least not yet. Sure other influences since birth may have colored their choices, but they are still choices.

                The second issue I have is with their flaunting of sex and sexuality in public unlike any other segment of the population. There are "Pride" parades. These could be more accurately called Sex parades. We don't see heterosexual or fetish parades celebrating sex. The hookers and strippers don't hold parades in celebration of their sexual activities. But, the LGBT community does.

                If all LGBT really amounts to is simply a selection of sexual choices made by a small minority of the population, why are we going to such lengths to accommodate them at all?
                Most peoples sexual preference is set at a early age if not birth.
                you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                CPO Mzinyati

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by andrewza View Post
                  Most peoples sexual preference is set at a early age if not birth.
                  There is evidence for other factors in the early years as well, the exact interaction of which is not fully understood. Current science points to nature being dominant in forming sexual orientation, but environmental factors and the like are thought to be factors too.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                    There is evidence for other factors in the early years as well, the exact interaction of which is not fully understood. Current science points to nature being dominant in forming sexual orientation, but environmental factors and the like are thought to be factors too.
                    It is something that is hard to study though considering the age of those you studying and the length of time it spans. All I know is I knew fore sure what my sexuality was at young age 10-12 so when some says some ones chooses to be gay or what ever it just makes them seem ignorant to the subject.

                    Either way it is not a life style choice.
                    you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                    CPO Mzinyati

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                      That is entirely incorrect. I really don't want to have to keep posting the links to the documentation describing sexual orientation, gender identity, and the research surrounding such issues again. It was posted at least twice the last time we had these issues arise, so you can do a search to find them again.

                      And you've said this before, and it was wrong then too. Simply put, someone can be trans without ever having seen a doctor. Full stop. There is literally no requirement for surgery in someone to be transgender. No if, ands, or buts. None. Nadda. Zip.
                      No, what I stated isn't. Sure, you can be transgender without the surgery, but the second you start cross dressing, get surgically altered, etc., you are making choices about your appearance. At that point there is no difference between what you are doing and what some tattooed, pierced, etc., person has done.
                      But, without the surgery, or otherwise acting on your feelings you fit into the LGB part of that line even if you prefer to be "catching" rather than "pitching," being the "top" to the "bottom," so to speak, or the like.

                      The T portion means you are acting on your feelings and altering your appearance to suit them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        No, what I stated isn't. Sure, you can be transgender without the surgery, but the second you start cross dressing, get surgically altered, etc., you are making choices about your appearance. At that point there is no difference between what you are doing and what some tattooed, pierced, etc., person has done.
                        But, without the surgery, or otherwise acting on your feelings you fit into the LGB part of that line even if you prefer to be "catching" rather than "pitching," being the "top" to the "bottom," so to speak, or the like.

                        The T portion means you are acting on your feelings and altering your appearance to suit them.
                        You're wrong. I've said this before, but you don't have to do anything to be Trans. You keep talking about acts like cross dressing or surgery, when again, that has literally nothing to do with being Transexual.

                        Also, please don't try to use slang. It sounds like a parent trying to use rap lyrics to talk with their kid about drugs, my homey.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by andrewza View Post
                          It is something that is hard to study though considering the age of those you studying and the length of time it spans. All I know is I knew fore sure what my sexuality was at young age 10-12 so when some says some ones chooses to be gay or what ever it just makes them seem ignorant to the subject.

                          Either way it is not a life style choice.
                          There is also some problems in that sexual orientation is not black and white. Even bisexuals are not always attracted to both genders equally, and there are even those who claim that sexual orientation isn't a category but just a sliding scale, and everyone is just some varying level of bisexual.

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                          • #14
                            Am I the only one here with at least one LGB friend that doesn't appreciate being lumped in with the T crowd?
                            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by andrewza View Post
                              It is something that is hard to study though considering the age of those you studying and the length of time it spans. All I know is I knew fore sure what my sexuality was at young age 10-12 so when some says some ones chooses to be gay or what ever it just makes them seem ignorant to the subject.

                              Either way it is not a life style choice.
                              That's not entirely correct. Being homosexual is not a choice but lifestyle definitely is.

                              Lifestyle is not in any way synonymous with sexual orientation. How many straights in your community go around flaunting their sexuality at every opportunity in public?


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