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  • #76
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
    You're showing that you are making claims that you can not back up. It is one thing to say 'there is no God' it is a lie to claim that "current evidence shows there are no dieties." There is no "current evidence."

    You backed yourself into another corner again, as you do with most posts dealing with politics or religion.
    Yet again, false. From the evidence currently available we can conclude that they do not exist because there is no evidence that they do exist.

    The sheer amount of logical fallacies people use to defend religion is near insanity. "You can't prove my religion is false". I quite frankly do not need to. I simply need to evaluate evidence currently available. Since there is none supporting the existence of any deities, the only logical conclusion is disbelief.

    Someone comes to me about a ghost in their house. I investigate the matter and find no evidence of anything abnormal at all after years of work and investigation. Do I decide that there might be ghosts in the house or that there are not?
    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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    • #77
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      And in the immoral... err, immortal words of one "Slick Willie"... "It depends on what the meaning of the word is, is." That's what you're giving as a response.

      My definitions are those given by what is arguably the premier standard for the English language, Webster's unabridged dictionary. That many Atheists chafe at that definition doesn't negate its accuracy.
      I know many Atheists do chafe at it too. They are loathe to admit that what they fundamentally believe amounts to a religion. Too bad for them.
      Because you're choosing a definition from those available that suits your needs. I'm providing one chosen by the atheist community that best represents our beliefs.

      The lack of belief in something cannot amount to a religion. It is not a religion to disbelieve in magic. It is not a religion to disbelieve in vampires. It is not a religion to disbelieve in dragons. It is not a religion to disbelieve in any of the thousands of humanity's gods. Do you begin to understand now? Lack of belief in something is a logical conclusion to come to due to lack of evidence in somethings existence.
      First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
        Yet again, false. From the evidence currently available we can conclude that they do not exist because there is no evidence that they do exist.
        So a college student....trying to get a Liberal Arts Degree in History.....has proof that God doesn't exist?

        What does Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D. have to say about God:

        COLLINS: It certainly did carry with it this experience that life is now different. And along with that, this sense that God is not some distant concept, some ethereal, fuzzy entity. God became personal for me at that point. That really was the decision I was making, to believe not just in God, but in a God who wishes fellowship with me. That God is a God who both created the universe, and also had a plan that included me as an individual human being. And that he has made it possible for me, through this series of explorations, to realize that. It is not just a philosophy, it is a reality of a relationship.

        http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgo...s/collins.html

        Both of you offer no proof, yet he is highly educated, a leader of the Human Genome Project....a Director at NIH......and...a Democrat.

        When you get a little older you will probably have the same type of revelation that he had.....he was also an Atheist.
        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Nichols View Post
          So a college student....trying to get a Liberal Arts Degree in History.....has proof that God doesn't exist?

          What does Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D. have to say about God:

          COLLINS: It certainly did carry with it this experience that life is now different. And along with that, this sense that God is not some distant concept, some ethereal, fuzzy entity. God became personal for me at that point. That really was the decision I was making, to believe not just in God, but in a God who wishes fellowship with me. That God is a God who both created the universe, and also had a plan that included me as an individual human being. And that he has made it possible for me, through this series of explorations, to realize that. It is not just a philosophy, it is a reality of a relationship.

          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgo...s/collins.html

          Both of you offer no proof, yet he is highly educated, a leader of the Human Genome Project....a Director at NIH......and...a Democrat.

          When you get a little older you will probably have the same type of revelation that he had.....he was also an Atheist.
          Good for Him. Just shows you that looking at the mysteries of the universe can open your mind...
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Nichols View Post
            So a college student....trying to get a Liberal Arts Degree in History.....has proof that God doesn't exist?

            What does Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D. have to say about God:

            COLLINS: It certainly did carry with it this experience that life is now different. And along with that, this sense that God is not some distant concept, some ethereal, fuzzy entity. God became personal for me at that point. That really was the decision I was making, to believe not just in God, but in a God who wishes fellowship with me. That God is a God who both created the universe, and also had a plan that included me as an individual human being. And that he has made it possible for me, through this series of explorations, to realize that. It is not just a philosophy, it is a reality of a relationship.

            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgo...s/collins.html

            Both of you offer no proof, yet he is highly educated, a leader of the Human Genome Project....a Director at NIH......and...a Democrat.

            When you get a little older you will probably have the same type of revelation that he had.....he was also an Atheist.
            I tire of the runaround. Lack of evidence in something means that those who don't believe don't need any sort of faith to lack belief in whatever is being presented. Also, how do you go about proving a negative?

            Again, get off your high horse, stop the ad hominems, and engage in an actual debate for once. The attempt to discredit my logical arguments by referring to age is yet another logical fallacy.
            First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
              Again, get off your high horse, stop the ad hominems, and engage in an actual debate for once. The attempt to discredit my logical arguments by referring to age is yet another logical fallacy.

              With age comes wisdom......

              You haven't presented a "logical argument." The only thing that you have done is constantly repeat:

              "current evidence shows there are no deities."

              When asked to provide evidence of this false claim....you provide nothing but redirects, distractors, false leads, and moving the goal post....

              You can't decide which direction to go because you have managed to back yourself into the corner with your false statement.

              At least I produced a Scientist that clearly believes in God.... you....haven't produced anything to back up your false claim.
              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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              • #82
                Reread my posts. I answered your question multiple times. This is trying to debate with someone who doesn't bother to read what I write and throws ad hominems about. I'll be moving onto something more productive.
                First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                  Reread my posts. I answered your question multiple times. This is trying to debate with someone who doesn't bother to read what I write and throws ad hominems about. I'll be moving onto something more productive.
                  You are proving that reading is not always fundamental.
                  "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                  • #84
                    Oh the humanity. Just think of all the minds damaged...

                    Credo quia absurdum.


                    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                      Yet again, false. From the evidence currently available we can conclude that they do not exist because there is no evidence that they do exist.
                      By that logic quarks didn't come into being until very recently. That which exists exists regardless of your ability to prove its existence. We didn't know there was such a thing as germs until relatively recently. Our inability to study it did not nullify its existence.

                      This is the ultimate difference between our schools of thought:

                      You believe that that which is not proven must be decidedly false, now and forever.

                      I believe that that which has not been proven.....is unproven.

                      Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                      I simply need to evaluate evidence currently available.
                      Now that's a fun set of words. Currently available. The problem with making a declarative statement of fact based on "currently available" evidence, you are essentially freezing your belief system in time. "Currently available" is subject to change.

                      I like to joke about V'ger being my role model.



                      I seek the "creator" - by analyzing the crap out of everything I encounter.

                      When I was a child, I saw God as a nice man in the sky. When I was a teen, I saw God as a set of rules. As a young adult, my concept of God, science, and history were fused. Now approaching my mid 30s, things have changed considerably. I have developed an extensive book by book analysis of the Bible and no longer treat it as one single publication. I am devoted to my religion as a philosophy but wrestle over matters regarding the nature and existence of a creator. I analyze the existence of a creator in two ways, first through theology and then through non-theological abstract reasoning, trying to find a rational connection point. Give me another decade and it will likely take me an entire day to explain the sum of my contemplations.

                      My point is, I didn't stop digging. If I went by "currently available" understanding when I was a child, I'd still see God as a nice man in the sky and not a creative force I can't put a face to. If I went by "currently available" data from the '90s, I'd still be a literal creationist.

                      When you take an unresolved issue and make a snap decision based on an incomplete compilation of data, you risk getting stuck at one point in time.

                      I prefer to keep digging. I dig when I am confident and I dig when I have doubts but above all I keep digging.

                      Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                      Since there is none supporting the existence of any deities, the only logical conclusion is disbelief.
                      Logic is another fun word. It's fun and it helps us feel superior to call another person illogical but being logical is one of the most relativistic things out there. Logical simply means that your conclusions are based on a rational chain of thought. A person running down the street from the hallucination of a monster chasing them is behaving in a perfectly logical fashion. If an actual monster was chasing you, you would run too. Now let's kick it over to your ghost metaphor. If a person sees a supernatural entity floating in front of their eyes, believing ghosts are real is a logical conclusion, even if they aren't. And when you call someone illogical for believing in God, well such really isn't the case. Even if God ISN'T real, their belief in him can be perfectly logical. They have seen things which have convinced them according to their understanding that God is out there. It is perfectly logical for them to believe thus. Illogicality would be them having a deeply spiritual experience and NOT being changed by it.

                      Logic has nothing to do with truth or fiction. It has to do with rational connection and reasoning. A person can be logical even if they are wrong. You say a theist is illogical but you are basing this on your experiences. You haven't seen or felt what they have seen or felt so you have no real sample for comparison.

                      I think DoD is getting irritated by our derailment so if you want to go further, I will start another thread.
                      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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