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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    Why wait?
    Why can't all the people (inside and OUTside the US) that have something to say about Trump every day... start being Objective now?

    It would seem to be more important now, before the big decision is made.
    Obviously, I can't speak for " all the people", so I wouldn't know.
    And being an OUTsider I 'm not really in a position to be any sort of authority on Trump, pro or con.
    (I did ask for more info about the man on this forum but was told to mind my own business).
    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
    Samuel Johnson.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
      Obviously, I can't speak for " all the people", so I wouldn't know.
      And being an OUTsider I 'm not really in a position to be any sort of authority on Trump, pro or con.
      (I did ask for more info about the man on this forum but was told to mind my own business).
      As far as I'm concerned you can ask all the questions about tRump as you will.

      I find his behavior to be quite embarrassing. I find this set of losers on both sides to be much the same. That we keep getting progressively worse candidates each time makes me kinda depressed. Maybe its shame that is the reason someone told you off.
      Credo quia absurdum.


      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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      • #63
        When it comes to "values" on the Left, you usually get clap trap like this:

        Howard Dean lists these "Core Values" of the Democratic Party

        1. Fairness and Equal Rights for all
        2. Strength and Toughness
        3. Fiscal Responsibility

        These are demonstrated by providing Health Care for all.
        Define "fairness." Does fairness mean taxing the snot out of the rich because it's "unfair" they're rich and you aren't? Does fairness mean quotas for jobs so that protected races and genders are represented according to their numbers in the population rather than hired for their skills?

        "Strength and Toughness," I have no idea what the hell that means in concrete definable terms.

        "Fiscal Responsibility." Yea, right...

        These are demonstrated by providing Health Care for all.
        I have to ask, how?

        Then there's this version by George Lakoff:

        Progressive core values are:
        * Caring and responsibility, carried out with strength

        * Protection, fulfillment in life, fairness

        * Freedom, opportunity, prosperity

        * Community, service, cooperation

        * Trust, honesty, open communication
        Can you turn any of that into actual concrete systems that would allow that to work? I can't. It's so vague it's useless.

        Or this "Worker's Bill of Rights"

        Workers are entitled to certain fundamental rights in the course of earning a living. These include:

        1. The right to organize and form a union, engage in collective bargaining, exercise full freedom of association and designate representative of their own choosing for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment;

        And if workers choose not to participate will their choice be honored or will they be forced to join in a "Closed shop?" My bet is the answer is NO!

        2. The right to engage in a lawful strike without being permanently replaced or losing their jobs;

        Define lawful. Can they strike indefinitely? I'm sure part of this prevents scabs or replacement workers during the strike, after all the employer / capitalist owning the business is evil and should know better...

        3. The right to maintain an equitable standard of living derived from compensation for their labor;

        Even if that standard is well above the value of the labor provided?

        4. The right to job training, other services and education that will empower them to maximize their earnings, improve their occupational skills and enhance the productivity of the Nation;

        Who pays for this?

        5. The right to be assured safe and healthful working conditions and to receive from their employers a conscientious effort to reduce the number of occupational safety and health hazards at their places of employment;

        To what degree? What's the standard or is this "Zero Tolerance?"

        6. The right to health care for wage earners and their families;

        Who pays for this? If it's the employer does it count as wages in kind?

        7. The right to earn their living in an environment free from all forms of discrimination;

        Define "all forms..."

        8. The right to a livable and economically secure retirement;

        Who's paying for that?

        9. The right to engage in the political process as guaranteed under the First Amendment to the Constitution, which would include voluntary participation in the union's political action committee and the use of union dues money as currently provided under state and federal law.

        And if a worker objects to the union's position can they opt out of having their money used thusly? What if a worker on that committee is diametrically opposed to the other's position? Will accommodation be made to be inclusive or will they be shut out?
        [Red my answers]

        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1...ressive-Values

        This is the sort of clap trap and rhetoric that the Left shouts for at the beginning of a revolution. Vague, undefined ideals that appeal to the stupid and poor in particular. Once in power, the Left finds that they can't make any of this happen without strong arm repression of the opposition, crushing taxes, confiscation of property, and in general setting up a dictatorship of virtue as they see it.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by R. Evans View Post
          And I just like the way "Corporate Shill" or "Corporate Lapdog" sounds. You choose.
          You have to choose your own insults... I would just recommend choosing insults that "sing."
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
            If his understanding of society especially economics comes from being a community organizer what would you expect?

            One thing I will give Sanders is he seems a more sincere socialist. Obama seems to be just along for the fun and perks of office.
            I would expect a Marxist duck to swim, walk and quack like a Marxist duck.

            Bernie and Maobama are two sides of the Marxist coin.
            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
              Obviously, I can't speak for " all the people", so I wouldn't know.
              And being an OUTsider I 'm not really in a position to be any sort of authority on Trump, pro or con.
              (I did ask for more info about the man on this forum but was told to mind my own business).
              Hold on a sec... what?

              Okay, that ain't cool. Maybe it was how you asked, or who you asked, but lets take care of that.
              This is Extremely informative re; myth-busting about the man and has some fascinating revelations about the political situation in the USA today--

              Hope that helps.
              "Why is the Rum gone?"

              -Captain Jack

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                Hold on a sec... what?

                Okay, that ain't cool. Maybe it was how you asked, or who you asked, but lets take care of that.
                This is Extremely informative re; myth-busting about the man and has some fascinating revelations about the political situation in the USA today--

                Hope that helps.
                Much obliged.
                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                Samuel Johnson.

                Comment

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