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"No, Mr. President, 1776 Wasn’t Anything Like Castro’s 1959 Putsch"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    I don't see how Maobama's words could be interpreted that way...
    ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


    The ideals of Communist revolution are antithetical to those of the American Revolution. This is a cold, hard fact.

    Technically, the US isn't even a democracy. It is a constitutional representative republic. While we maintain strong democratic processes, the framers understood that democracy was not the way to protect individual liberty.
    You keeping thinking that he is talking about the actual revolutionaries ideology, their methods etc. He's not. He's talking about the basic emotions and desires that lead to a country revolting etc.

    What percent of the revolutionaries that over through the Russian Czarist government were Communist/Leninist? Hint remember there were two in 1917 and then a rather long civil war.
    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
    “To talk of many things:
    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
    Of cabbages—and kings—
    And why the sea is boiling hot—
    And whether pigs have wings.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      I don't see how Maobama's words could be interpreted that way...
      ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


      The ideals of Communist revolution are antithetical to those of the American Revolution. This is a cold, hard fact.

      Technically, the US isn't even a democracy. It is a constitutional representative republic. While we maintain strong democratic processes, the framers understood that democracy was not the way to protect individual liberty.
      Revolutions with a democratic intent and democratic outcome are the best forms of revolution.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
        You keeping thinking that he is talking about the actual revolutionaries ideology, their methods etc. He's not. He's talking about the basic emotions and desires that lead to a country revolting etc.

        What percent of the revolutionaries that over through the Russian Czarist government were Communist/Leninist? Hint remember there were two in 1917 and then a rather long civil war.
        I'm going with what he said...
        ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


        The ideals of Communist revolution are antithetical to those of the American Revolution...
        Full Definition of ideal
        1
        : existing as an archetypal idea
        2
        a : existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only; broadly : lacking practicality
        b : relating to or constituting mental images, ideas, or conceptions
        3
        a : of, relating to, or embodying an ideal <ideal beauty>
        b : conforming exactly to an ideal, law, or standard : perfect <an ideal gas> — compare real 2b(3)
        4
        : of or relating to philosophical idealism

        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideal

        Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?
        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
          Revolutions with a democratic intent and democratic outcome are the best forms of revolution.
          And the rarest... The exception to the rule.
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
            I'm going with what he said...
            ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


            The ideals of Communist revolution are antithetical to those of the American Revolution...
            Full Definition of ideal
            1
            : existing as an archetypal idea
            2
            a : existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only; broadly : lacking practicality
            b : relating to or constituting mental images, ideas, or conceptions
            3
            a : of, relating to, or embodying an ideal <ideal beauty>
            b : conforming exactly to an ideal, law, or standard : perfect <an ideal gas> — compare real 2b(3)
            4
            : of or relating to philosophical idealism

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideal

            Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?
            You keep repeating your mistake and keep thinking of COMMUNIST revolution, he never mentions that. As opposed to the ideals of the population that LEAD to revolution, ANY revolution. Revolutions do not happend in societies that are happy with the status quo.
            “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
            “To talk of many things:
            Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
            Of cabbages—and kings—
            And why the sea is boiling hot—
            And whether pigs have wings.”
            ― Lewis Carroll

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
              You keep repeating your mistake and keep thinking of COMMUNIST revolution, he never mentions that. As opposed to the ideals of the population that LEAD to revolution, ANY revolution. Revolutions do not happend in societies that are happy with the status quo.
              "Every revolution" includes all revolutions, most of which have been Communist revolutions over the last 100 years...
              ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


              Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                "Every revolution" includes all revolutions, most of which have been Communist revolutions over the last 100 years...
                ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


                Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?
                No, you're still not focusing on the right idea. Once again his comment is NOT about the actual revolutionaries. Not even close. You're on a hunt and that is tracking you down the wrong path.
                “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                “To talk of many things:
                Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                Of cabbages—and kings—
                And why the sea is boiling hot—
                And whether pigs have wings.”
                ― Lewis Carroll

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                  No, you're still not focusing on the right idea. Once again his comment is NOT about the actual revolutionaries. Not even close. You're on a hunt and that is tracking you down the wrong path.
                  This is actually written in English. It is exactly what he said...
                  ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


                  Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?

                  Words have these things called "definitions." You can look them up in books called, "dictionaries."

                  The word "ideals" has a specific definition.

                  This phrase: "The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution,..." means exactly what it says. It doesn’t say or mean, the motivations of peasants who participated in revolutions. The ideals of a revolution are the underlying principles of the revolution. The ideals of most revolutions, and all Communist revolutions, are antithetical to those of the American Revolution.

                  BF69's interpretation at least has some logical basis. This may have been his way of diplomatically gigging Raul Castro. However, Maobama either believes that the American Revolution was based on the same ideals as Communist revolutions or the speechwriter was just ignorant.
                  Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    This is actually written in English. It is exactly what he said...
                    ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


                    Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?

                    Words have these things called "definitions." You can look them up in books called, "dictionaries."

                    The word "ideals" has a specific definition.

                    This phrase: "The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution,..." means exactly what it says. It doesn’t say or mean, the motivations of peasants who participated in revolutions. The ideals of a revolution are the underlying principles of the revolution. The ideals of most revolutions, and all Communist revolutions, are antithetical to those of the American Revolution.

                    BF69's interpretation at least has some logical basis. This may have been his way of diplomatically gigging Raul Castro. However, Maobama either believes that the American Revolution was based on the same ideals as Communist revolutions or the speechwriter was just ignorant.
                    Not motivations, the ideals. The desire to throw off oppressive governments is what is behind revolutions. Not complicated unless your twisting his statement in order to just have another MOABOMA thread... oh wait, I get it now.

                    You're Ideals are showing.
                    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                    “To talk of many things:
                    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                    Of cabbages—and kings—
                    And why the sea is boiling hot—
                    And whether pigs have wings.”
                    ― Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                      Not motivations, the ideals. The desire to throw off oppressive governments is what is behind revolutions. Not complicated unless your twisting his statement in order to just have another MOABOMA thread... oh wait, I get it now.

                      You're Ideals are showing.
                      Throwing off an oppressive government is not an "ideal." It is a process, an action.

                      Back to the dictionary...
                      ideal
                      [ahy-dee-uh l, ahy-deel]
                      noun
                      1.
                      a conception of something in its perfection.

                      http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ideal

                      The desire to topple an oppressive government is a motivation. It is not an ideal of a revolution. The ideals of a revolution are the conceptions of the revolution in its perfect form. It is what the revolutionaries intend to achieve after toppling the current government.
                      Last edited by The Doctor; 25 Mar 16, 17:54.
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                        Not motivations, the ideals. The desire to throw off oppressive governments is what is behind revolutions. Not complicated unless your twisting his statement in order to just have another MOABOMA thread... oh wait, I get it now.

                        You're Ideals are showing.
                        "The desire to throw off oppressive governments is what is behind revolutions".

                        Is that ALL revolutions ? If so then are all the countless revolutions ,rebellions ,insurrections coups,putschs etc that have happened are all for the best ? Not motivated by power-hungry people who have seized their chance ?

                        But perhaps the context is everything.
                        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                        Samuel Johnson.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          "Every revolution" includes all revolutions, most of which have been Communist revolutions over the last 100 years...
                          ”The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution, America’s revolution, Cuba’s revolution, the liberation movements around the world, these ideals find their truest expression, I believe, in democracy.”


                          Was the phrase, "the ideals that are the starting point for every revolution," a gaffe? A misprint on the teleprompter? Or does he actually believe this?
                          Well, let's start with that. What were / are the most commonly expressed revolutionary ideals for say the last 200 years? Can they be enumerated? I'd think so. Once we know what those common revolutionary ideals are we can discuss their relevance to Cuba's and the American revolution.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            Well, let's start with that. What were / are the most commonly expressed revolutionary ideals for say the last 200 years? Can they be enumerated? I'd think so. Once we know what those common revolutionary ideals are we can discuss their relevance to Cuba's and the American revolution.
                            We can safely say that the ideals of all Communist revolutions are antithetical to those of the American Revolution. Therefore, there are no set of ideals that form the starting points of all revolutions.
                            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                              We can safely say that the ideals of all Communist revolutions are antithetical to those of the American Revolution. Therefore, there are no set of ideals that form the starting points of all revolutions.
                              Which is what I said. ( posting # 41).

                              Very often whatever idealism there might have been is submerged in the red flags and gunfire.
                              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                              Samuel Johnson.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                                If you look at it that way...

                                "The ideals that are the starting point for every revolution" revolve around left-wing thugs and hoodlums eventually seizing power...
                                And you don't think that is exactly how the Crown viewed our Founding Fathers in 1776? Do some reading on the Empire's reaction to our revolution. Hell, we didn't achieve Ambassador status to the UK until 1893.

                                You're probably still stirred up because some of your corporate masters lost money when Castro took over. Give it up. It was over 50 years ago.
                                Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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