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The Robert "LaVoy" Finicum case-

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  • The Robert "LaVoy" Finicum case-

    An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicum and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday. The bullets didn't hit Finicum and didn't contribute to his death, but now all five unnamed agents, part of an elite national unit, are under criminal investigation by the U.S. Justice Department. The remarkable disclosure came as a team of local investigators released findings that two state troopers shot Finicum three times in the back.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...gents_und.html


    Cell phone footage captured from inside the truck of LaVoy Finicum, the 54-year-old leader in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation, shows the moments before and after his death last January. YouTube video at their Clash Daily site, 12m 34s
    http://clashdaily.com/2016/03/breaki...hicle-graphic/

    Wow.... Looks like there is a hell of a lot more to this case than we were lead to believe.


    LaVoy’s widow Jeanette Finicum has announced she will be filing a wrongful death lawsuit against Oregon authorities in the shooting death of her husband.

    At a press conference, Mrs. Finicum said she and her family “reject the biased, whitewashed findings and conclusion reported yesterday,” and that her legal team has proof the roadblock was a set up.

    She also says the agents released a selectively edited video to make it appear as if her husband is reaching for a gun, when in reality he was walking away from his truck with his hands in the air the first time he was shot. Again, all of the gunshot wounds Finicum suffered were found to be in his back.

    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03...ul-death-suit/

  • #2
    Full details are nowhere near released, but at this stage it looks to be an internal matter.

    The FBI agent, part of their tactical team, tried to hide the fact that he both missed and broke policy by firing in the first place. Its likely the end of his career, and serious problems for the four others if they covered for him, but it has zero to do with the incident as a whole.

    It is, as is my favorite rant, the result of poor training.

    As to the State troopers, there's nothing against shooting a subject in the back; that does not impact the UoF Continuum at all. So long as they acted to prevent injury to those in front of him, they're clear. The key, as case law has firmly established, is that any person's use of force must be based upon the perception of the person using the force at the time the force was used.

    He was armed. He fled from a lawful traffic stop (which in most states is a lawful arrest). He wrecked out trying to evade a police roadblock. He failed to comply with instructions. He created a dangerous situation within a much larger, hypertensive situation.

    In the end, its just efforts to grind some more money out of this homebrew episode of Jacka**.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...gents_und.html


      Cell phone footage captured from inside the truck of LaVoy Finicum, the 54-year-old leader in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation, shows the moments before and after his death last January. YouTube video at their Clash Daily site, 12m 34s
      http://clashdaily.com/2016/03/breaki...hicle-graphic/

      Wow.... Looks like there is a hell of a lot more to this case than we were lead to believe.





      http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03...ul-death-suit/

      No, there's not really. But that will not stop the crazies.
      “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
      “To talk of many things:
      Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
      Of cabbages—and kings—
      And why the sea is boiling hot—
      And whether pigs have wings.”
      ― Lewis Carroll

      Comment


      • #4
        What really got to me here is how they kept shooting into that car AFTER that guy was put down.
        It is most clear in the 2nd one, where the two different vids are linked up. I didn't hear any of the Cops saying anything to anyone in the car ... nobody brought a bullhorn to a roadblock like that?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
          What really got to me here is how they kept shooting into that car AFTER that guy was put down.
          It is most clear in the 2nd one, where the two different vids are linked up. I didn't hear any of the Cops saying anything to anyone in the car ... nobody brought a bullhorn to a roadblock like that?
          Strangely enough, when bullets start flying and people are getting hurt, very few participants are willing to pick up a bullhorn and start drawing everyone's attention to themselves.

          Most people don't realize this, but surviving a firefight is considered a desirable and even a primary objective.

          Unlike Hollywood, no one involved had read a script telling them whether or not they would survive the events of the day. That sort of uncertainty has a major impact on these sort of situations.

          I have always said that if we could get all the participants together the day before and work out who would do what, real life shootings would be much clearer to view, entertaining to watch, and easier to resolve.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            Strangely enough, when bullets start flying and people are getting hurt, very few participants are willing to pick up a bullhorn and start drawing everyone's attention to themselves.

            Most people don't realize this, but surviving a firefight is considered a desirable and even a primary objective.

            Unlike Hollywood, no one involved had read a script telling them whether or not they would survive the events of the day. That sort of uncertainty has a major impact on these sort of situations.

            I have always said that if we could get all the participants together the day before and work out who would do what, real life shootings would be much clearer to view, entertaining to watch, and easier to resolve.
            Well, I took you off ignore because you were the only one responding with something thoughtful... and then I get this.

            This cute little analysis of a "firefight" may work with the geeks that show up for a Press Briefing, but come on. A firefight is when someone is shooting back, and nobody was in this case. Your first post was much better, and acknowledges that there was panic-fire going on and a real screw-up in what was supposed to be a carefully planned operation that they had many days to plan.

            Allegations that "leVoy" was gut-shot and was reaching for a wound instead of a gun look more credible now, did you hear the number of shots fired?

            I'm bringing this up because I am starting to wonder how the various agencies are briefed when approaching this sort of thing.
            EVERYTHING else about how the standoff was handled perfectly, the cops did it right and even that last holdout with warrants on his skanky behind was talked down and surrendered.

            However, this last bit looks like something out of that movie Red State, and handed the fringe their martyr.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Well, I took you off ignore because you were the only one responding with something thoughtful... and then I get this.

              This cute little analysis of a "firefight" may work with the geeks that show up for a Press Briefing, but come on. A firefight is when someone is shooting back, and nobody was in this case. Your first post was much better, and acknowledges that there was panic-fire going on and a real screw-up in what was supposed to be a carefully planned operation that they had many days to plan.

              Allegations that "leVoy" was gut-shot and was reaching for a wound instead of a gun look more credible now, did you hear the number of shots fired?

              I'm bringing this up because I am starting to wonder how the various agencies are briefed when approaching this sort of thing.
              EVERYTHING else about how the standoff was handled perfectly, the cops did it right and even that last holdout with warrants on his skanky behind was talked down and surrendered.

              However, this last bit looks like something out of that movie Red State, and handed the fringe their martyr.
              Again, here is the simple fact: when guns start going off, tunnel-vision sets in. You don't know which direction the bullets are firing. You cannot be assured of your own survival. So yes, its a firefight. Those are Human beings involved, not robots.

              Sitting back watching the big picture without any concerns for your own safety gives you a view of the situation that is wholly unlike what the participants saw and experienced.

              This is why the courts evaluate use of force based upon the perception of the user at the time of use. Anything else is unrealistic.

              As to planning the operation, they didn't know that a vehicle could run, they didn't know the vehicle would try to get around the barricade...you can't plan for things like that. I've set up a few felony take-downs (which is what this was). You can lay out a general outline, but there are so many variables that you can't cover them all.

              And then there is the fact that unlike the military, your force will be drawn from agencies with different policies, procedures, training levels, politics, and chain of command.

              Even within an agency the officers and agents normally work alone; you don't have a coherent unit structure such as the military develops, except possibly with tactical units. Lastly, the odds are extremely high that this incident was every officer's first shooting incident.

              Overall, based on actual experience, I would say this op went well. Nobody but the bad guy got hurt. Sure, an FBI agent managed to shoot his own career in the foot, but that has zero impact on anyone but him. And maybe his buddies who tried to save him from his own screw-up.

              But the case remains the same. If the loony's want to make him a martyr, so be it. Real life shootings are messy, confusing, and vague. There's no Hollywood drama, no TV clarity.

              The bottom line remains the same: the reason the goober died is because of the choices he made, going all the way back to the initial 'hey, let's take over Federal land'. He decided to play in the big leagues without big league skills, and he finished dead last. Literally.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                As to planning the operation, they didn't know that a vehicle could run, they didn't know the vehicle would try to get around the barricade...you can't plan for things like that. I've set up a few felony take-downs (which is what this was). You can lay out a general outline, but there are so many variables that you can't cover them all.
                But that WAS a planned operation, they even had that guy coming out of the woods way over on the left flank.
                It was also done deliberately where there was no cell coverage, and where the shoulder was so soft that there was no getting around the block. So, this wasn't a surprise to anyone manning the roadblock.

                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                And then there is the fact that unlike the military, your force will be drawn from agencies with different policies, procedures, training levels, politics, and chain of command.

                Even within an agency the officers and agents normally work alone; you don't have a coherent unit structure such as the military develops, except possibly with tactical units. Lastly, the odds are extremely high that this incident was every officer's first shooting incident.
                This is what I would actually like to get to the bottom of-
                How well coordinated are the various agencies?
                And why must 3 or 4 different ones be involved in the same traffic stop? Because you have to know as well as I do; if they are not all on the same sheet of music there is going to be trouble.
                Sure, you have local, state & Federal Police (this month, I started hearing people use the term 'Feds' who never would have before) involved, but in a roadblock with less than 10 men manning it must there be guys from every department?
                Yeah, okay, I have that uniform military perspective where 10,000 guys in one place have the same training and answer to the same guys. I'm curious because I really have no idea how varied it is for LEOs... so I ask a lot of stuff of you.
                However, if there is a snatch & grab going on that you need just a dozen men for, you don't send in a mixed squad Blackwater, Iraqis and Cav Scouts in there. You have to stick with small units that know how to work together.
                And that is where I see you guys flirting with disaster, regularly.



                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                The bottom line remains the same: the reason the goober died is because of the choices he made, going all the way back to the initial 'hey, let's take over Federal land'. He decided to play in the big leagues without big league skills, and he finished dead last. Literally.
                Ain't nobody with a lick of sense is going to argue that. However, when a car full of women & kids is being slowly shot up as if they are trying to shoot fish in a barrel, it looks as if the obsession with Home Grown Terror is trying to become a self-fulfillin prophecy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                  Allegations that "leVoy" was gut-shot and was reaching for a wound instead of a gun look more credible now, did you hear the number of shots fired?
                  IIRC, autopsy came back with the conclusion that he was struck in the back.

                  How do you reach for a wound in your back (if possible)?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From the very article you linked:

                    Finicum was struck from behind in the left shoulder, the left upper back near his neck and the right lower back, a state autopsy found. The bullet in his lower back migrated up and hit several organs, including his heart. He died at the scene.
                    Perhaps my anatomy is incorrect, but these wounds are nowhere near the gut.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                      But that WAS a planned operation, they even had that guy coming out of the woods way over on the left flank.
                      It was also done deliberately where there was no cell coverage, and where the shoulder was so soft that there was no getting around the block. So, this wasn't a surprise to anyone manning the roadblock.

                      Ain't nobody with a lick of sense is going to argue that. However, when a car full of women & kids is being slowly shot up as if they are trying to shoot fish in a barrel, it looks as if the obsession with Home Grown Terror is trying to become a self-fulfillin prophecy.
                      Maybe they expected him to stop at the roadblock? Once he tried going around, everything changed? Remember the old maxim "no plan survives first contact with the enemy"? Maybe he shouldn't have brought women and children with him when he tried eluding police and then attempted to get around a roadblock? Maybe he was using them for cover, just like the terrorists in the Middle East?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                        But that WAS a planned operation, they even had that guy coming out of the woods way over on the left flank.
                        It was also done deliberately where there was no cell coverage, and where the shoulder was so soft that there was no getting around the block. So, this wasn't a surprise to anyone manning the roadblock.
                        There was a plan, but what you discuss in a office the day before and what happens out there seldom match except in the broadest sense.

                        The military has a saying that is applicable: no plan survives contact with the enemy.


                        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                        This is what I would actually like to get to the bottom of-
                        How well coordinated are the various agencies?
                        Only as much as each agency wants to be.

                        LE agencies in the USA, as you know, are autonomous. The Feds can't tell the State Police 'We're doing this according to this plan.' They can ask, and negotiate, and usually everyone wants to get along, but its still a co-op effort. Plus you have enforcement issues: the Feds only enforce the Federal Code. So frequently (I don't know about this situation) if they want a traffic stop made, they need a state or local officer to make the stop because they cannot enforce traffic laws.

                        The feds needed State & local manpower, and the price to that usually is "we want to be in on anything big".

                        To give you a good example, it took 9/11 to begin to get all ES agencies moving towards a standardized band range of radios so we could talk to each other. In theory it is much better now, but its far from perfect. Add in that every agency has its own training standards, command structure...its amazing as much gets done as it does.

                        That's why I mock people who think Bobo or someone else will seize power. The organization simply isn't there.

                        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                        Ain't nobody with a lick of sense is going to argue that. However, when a car full of women & kids is being slowly shot up as if they are trying to shoot fish in a barrel, it looks as if the obsession with Home Grown Terror is trying to become a self-fulfillin prophecy.
                        There were kids in the car?

                        As to females, that's outdated thinking, Ex. You cannot suggest that there is a weaker sex.
                        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                          Maybe they expected him to stop at the roadblock? Once he tried going around, everything changed? Remember the old maxim "no plan survives first contact with the enemy"? Maybe he shouldn't have brought women and children with him when he tried eluding police and then attempted to get around a roadblock? Maybe he was using them for cover, just like the terrorists in the Middle East?
                          Everything changed when he fled from the traffic stop.

                          He had a second chance at the roadblock, but he got his truck stuck trying to get around it.

                          Even then he still had a chance: do what was being yelled at him by agitated people pointing guns. That is good advice no matter what your circumstances are.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's real simple, the man made a string of decisions that ended up with him being dead. They were his decisions. Nothing anyone can make up, example: he was gut shot when a simple autopsy shows its not true, changes that.

                            But for his decision to flee the first stop, but for his decision to almost run the blockade, but for his decision to not obey commands from the Officer, but for his decision to reach into his pocket he'd be alive. Those that did not make those decisions are alive. Really simple stuff.
                            “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                            “To talk of many things:
                            Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                            Of cabbages—and kings—
                            And why the sea is boiling hot—
                            And whether pigs have wings.”
                            ― Lewis Carroll

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                              It's real simple, the man made a string of decisions that ended up with him being dead. They were his decisions. Nothing anyone can make up, example: he was gut shot when a simple autopsy shows its not true, changes that.

                              But for his decision to flee the first stop, but for his decision to almost run the blockade, but for his decision to not obey commands from the Officer, but for his decision to reach into his pocket he'd be alive. Those that did not make those decisions are alive. Really simple stuff.
                              AGREED.

                              Comment

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