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A question regarding liberals and Reagan.

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  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    What Ollie was doing was only a crime after it leaked out and one can argue that it wal a bad thing that it leaked out ,because this was hurting the US .A lot of foreign allies lost their confidence in the US,not because what Ollie did, they considered it a good thing, but because the White House was unable to prevent the enemy (=Congress,CNN) of knowing of the thing .
    Keep in mind I have the same right brain type of personality as Cheney and Rumsfeld. It is only a problem if it is combined with a very large ego.

    Not all cases of criminality are equal, sometimes it may be in the best interest of society that someone breaks the law. That does not mean that their should be no punishment only that mitigating circumstances should be considered. For the individuals I listed from the Reagan administrations arguments can be made pro and con on whether their criminal acts were morally justified but history does not usually point that fine a point.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    [QUOTE=T. A. Gardner;3192455]
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    I didn't know that misleading and obstruction of Congress was a crime ,

    It is. Misleading and obstruction BY Congress isn't a crime...

    :

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  • ljadw
    replied
    What Ollie was doing was only a crime after it leaked out and one can argue that it wal a bad thing that it leaked out ,because this was hurting the US .A lot of foreign allies lost their confidence in the US,not because what Ollie did, they considered it a good thing, but because the White House was unable to prevent the enemy (=Congress,CNN) of knowing of the thing .

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    [QUOTE=ljadw;3192453]I didn't know that misleading and obstruction of Congress was a crime ,

    It is. Misleading and obstruction BY Congress isn't a crime...

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    I didn't know that misleading and obstruction of Congress was a crime ,

    I thought it was a good thing,as the less Congress is knowing, the less CNN is knowing and thus the less ISIS is knowing .

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Localyokel View Post
    Stack him up against all Presidents throughout history and he is certainly in the top 10.
    Reagan will get a high spot but as so often happens in history a President will be judged by who he is associated with. In this case Dick Cheney comes to mind. Rumsfeld by indirect association and business deals. There are also the following names from the Reagan administration that were convicted while he was in office.


    1. Lyn Nofziger--White House Press Secretary - Convicted on charges of illegal lobbying of White House in Wedtech scandal. The lobbying would not have been illegal had he not been White House Press Secretary.

    2. Michael Deaver, Reagan's Chief of Staff, received three years' probation and was fined one hundred thousand dollars after being convicted for lying to a congressional subcommittee and a federal grand jury about his lobbying activities after leaving the White House. Same as with Lyn Nofziger.

    3. James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of the Interior was indicted on 41 felony counts for using connections at the Department of Housing and Urban Development to help his private clients seek federal funds for housing projects in Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Watt conceded that he had received $500,000 from clients who were granted very favorable housing contracts after he had intervened on their behalf. Watt was eventually sentenced to five years in prison and 500 hours of community service.

    4. John Poindexter, Reagan's national security advisor, guilty of five criminal counts involving conspiracy to mislead Congress, obstructing congressional inquiries, lying to lawmakers, used "high national security" to mask deceit and wrong-doing...

    5. Richard Secord pleaded guilty to a felony charge of lying to Congress over Iran-Contra. Appointed by William Casey to assist Oliver North.

    6. Elliott Abrams was appointed by President Reagan in 1985 to head the State Department's Latin American Bureau. He was closely linked with ex-White House aide Lt. Col. Oliver North's covert movement to aid the Contras. Working for North, Abrams coordinated inter-agency support for the contras and helped solicit illegal funding from foreign powers as well as domestic contributors. Abrams agreed to cooperate with Iran-Contra investigators and pled guilty to two charges reduced to misdemeanors. He was sentenced in 1991 to two years probation and 100 hours of community service but was pardoned by President George Bush...

    7. Robert C. McFarlane, Reagan's National Security Advisor, pled guilty to four misdemeanors and was sentenced to two years probation and 200 hours of community service. He was also fined $20,000. He received a blanket pardon from President George Bush...

    8. Alan D. Fiers was the Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's Central American Task Force. Fiers pled guilty in 1991 to two counts of withholding information from congress about Oliver North's activities and the diversion of Iran arms sale money to aid the Contras. He was sentenced to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service.

    9. Alan Fiers received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President Bush...

    10. Thomas G. Clines: convicted of four counts of tax-related offenses for failing to report income from the operations;

    11. Carl R. Channel - Office of Public Diplomacy , partner in International Business- first person convicted in the Iran/Contra scandal, pleaded guilty of one count of defrauding the United States

    12. Richard R. Miller - Partner with Oliver North in IBC, a Office of Public Diplomacy front group, convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States.

    13. Frank Gomez

    14. Donald Fortier

    15. Clair George was Chief of the CIA's Division of Covert Operations under President Reagan. George was convicted of lying to two congressional committees in 1986. George faced a maximum five year federal prison sentence and a $20,000 fine for each of the two convictions. Jurors cleared George of five other charges including two counts of lying to a federal grand jury. Clair George received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President George Bush...

    16. Rita Lavelle was indicted, tried and convicted of lying to Congress and served three months of a six-month prison sentence.
    Philip Winn - Assistant HUD Secretary. Pleaded guilty to one count of scheming to give illegal gratuities.

    17. Thomas Demery - Assistand HUD Secretary - pleaded guilty to steering HUD subsidies to politically connected donors.

    18. Deborah Gore Dean - executive assistant to Samuel Pierce - indicted on thirteen counts, three counts of conspiracy, one count of accepting an illegal gratuity, four counts of perjury, and five counts of concealing articles. She was convicted on twelve accounts. She appealed and prevailed on several accounts but the convictions for conspiracy remained.

    19. Catalina Villaponda - Former US Treasurer

    20. Joseph A. Strauss - Accepting kickbacks from developers

    21. Oliver North - He was indicted on sixteen felony counts and on May 4, 1989, he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents (by his secretary, Fawn Hall, on his instructions). He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service. His conviction was later overturned.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/17/157477/-

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  • Localyokel
    replied
    Stack him up against all Presidents throughout history and he is certainly in the top 10.

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  • III Corps
    replied
    I voted for him for his second term. During his campaign, he asked "Aren't you better off now than you were four years ago?" For my young family of four with both parents employed and a new mortgage, we actually were better off.

    I do not consider him to have been a great president, but he got my vote for his second term.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Ronald Reagan: Added $1.86 trillion, 186% increase in the $998 billion debt level at the end of Carter's last budget, FY 1981.

    That is three times as much as Obama and 80% more than even GW

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/usdebt...-President.htm

    He was a like able man, that showed class and acted as a gentleman, nothing like trump, but really not the great President others think.

    I don't think that you can call a two time GOP Governor of the largest state an outsider.

    Leave a comment:


  • BKnight3
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    I agree, he was a great man. He broke the Soviet Union, and restored the USA after Carter (Obama I) had dragged the flag in the mud.

    But the liberals loathed him. They called him the 'Teflon President' because nothing seemed to stick to him. Look at 80s music- there are countless snide references to him.

    He addressed the large issues of the day, and left the law-abiding alone. Brady got shot in the assassination attempt on Reagan, but it wasn't until Slick Willie was embarrassing the office that his now-defunct gun law got sort-of pushed through.
    Mulford Act...

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  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
    I partially agree with you, I didn't much care for him when he ran and my Wife despised him, but we voted for him, Jimmy Carter was such a weakling and as an American it almost made me cry, but now we both agree that Reagan was the right man for that time!
    I agree, he was a great man. He broke the Soviet Union, and restored the USA after Carter (Obama I) had dragged the flag in the mud.

    But the liberals loathed him. They called him the 'Teflon President' because nothing seemed to stick to him. Look at 80s music- there are countless snide references to him.

    He addressed the large issues of the day, and left the law-abiding alone. Brady got shot in the assassination attempt on Reagan, but it wasn't until Slick Willie was embarrassing the office that his now-defunct gun law got sort-of pushed through.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trung Si
    replied
    Originally posted by boomer400 View Post
    Yeah, the California left was very anti-Reagan although most of that was a result of the seemingly disastrous Carter era. Plus, many people feared a rebirth of the supposedly extremist Goldwater Republicanism (since come somewhat true although he wasn't a fan of the 'religious right' at all) since most of his support went to Reagan as governor.
    It's true though that hindsight lends a certain rose-colored flavor to history and looking back at Reagans presidency, he actually couldn't survive being a current era Republican as too many people would accuse him of being a RINO. Furthermore, some of his eventual policies would probably brand him as heretical to the cause and more leftist than right. Such is the curse of compromise.
    I partially agree with you, I didn't much care for him when he ran and my Wife despised him, but we voted for him, Jimmy Carter was such a weakling and as an American it almost made me cry, but now we both agree that Reagan was the right man for that time!

    Leave a comment:


  • boomer400
    replied
    Yeah, the California left was very anti-Reagan although most of that was a result of the seemingly disastrous Carter era. Plus, many people feared a rebirth of the supposedly extremist Goldwater Republicanism (since come somewhat true although he wasn't a fan of the 'religious right' at all) since most of his support went to Reagan as governor.
    It's true though that hindsight lends a certain rose-colored flavor to history and looking back at Reagans presidency, he actually couldn't survive being a current era Republican as too many people would accuse him of being a RINO. Furthermore, some of his eventual policies would probably brand him as heretical to the cause and more leftist than right. Such is the curse of compromise.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    No, the Left hated Reagan. They don't want a Reagan back. What they're doing is several combined propaganda techniques.

    In essence, they are using the Transfer method create cognitive dissonance by encouraging those reading the article through an appeal to fear.

    It goes something like this. Reagan is the shining example of a great Republican. This is something they hope will appeal to any Conservative reading the article. They could care less about the Progressives reading it as they aren't the ones they want to change minds.

    Reagan did great things (fill in the blank here). This is a conditioning technique to reinforce the appeal to beautiful people. That is designed to get you on board and agreeing with the article's author.

    Now we have Trump. Look at what a dork / jerk / bigot (and other ad hominems, cherry picking, half-truths, and outright lies you want to fill in here) he is by comparison. This is where the cognitive dissonance begins. The writer wants you to conclude Trump is a loser compared to Reagan.

    You're not stupid. You're smarter than that! Why would you vote for a dunderhead like Trump? A false appeal to intellect.

    Look! Trump only gets maybe a third of Republican votes. The majority of your party doesn't like him. Don't you want to be with the winners who are voting against this foul beast? Now they try to bandwagon you heaping on more ad hominems.

    So, the article appears to praise Reagan when it's real intent is to make you dislike or hate Trump. Classic propaganda...

    It's a false comparison. Trump isn't Reagan. The issues today are not the ones facing Reagan either. Now, this comparison would be more absurd if they compared Trump to say, Lincoln and argued "Trump's no Lincoln!"
    Well, we aren't involved in a bloody civil war with 19th Century values being applied to it. Nor are the economic, foreign affairs, or domestic affairs issues the same.
    I agree it is a form of psychological violence deployed by manipulators.

    Have you ever had a girl friend who would try to get you to stop hanging out with a friend that doesn't like them. The conversation could go something like this.

    GF> Frank was a really nice guy why don't you have more friends like him?

    You> What do you mean I thought you didn't like Frank? Anyway he is on the other coast.

    GF> You know how moody I can be you just remember the bad things I said when I was upset with Frank. I really think he was a great guy.

    You> Ok but what do you mean I should have more friends like Frank.

    GF> Oh you know I was thinking that Bill was not good for us, he is getting between us.

    You> How is that?

    GF> Bill is just not a nice person like Frank

    You> How is not like Frank?

    GF> I don't like the way he looks at me

    You> I had not noticed him looking at you

    GF> He makes me feel creepy

    You> What are you saying you are afraid of him?

    GF> I don't want to say anything bad about anyone but I think he may be jealous of us.

    You> Ok I didn't really notice what you are talking about.


    Now every time you see Bill you will be thinking how he is creepy and not a good friend like long lost Frank. It is really just a form of abuse that uses your natural decency against you by implying that if you were empathetic enough you would see the same things the abuser sees in other people.

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  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    Yeah, I had a feeling this was the case.

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